5 days after the event, the more I think about what Dave Clifton, Ricky Scott and Malcolm achieved at Greg's Hut the more impressed I am. It was a delicate balance of kindness, firmness and humour that got us out of the hut, grouped and ready to go. I was grateful at the time but am awestruck now. I really can't see how you could have done anything better, and seriously doubt that any other team could have done it so well. Thank you.

I'm a runner that walked and thoroughly enjoyed HH. I used the RD during the day and my running watch during the night. It doesn't have mapping but can bring up a 'bread crumb line' of the gpx file that shows if you are on track or not. No faffing about, just glance at my watch now and again to check that I haven't gone astray. Over Cross fell I sat at the back of the group then pushed them left or right while the person in front picked the easiest route.

any recommendations out there on GPS makes models suitability etc etc
thanks

Rarely discussed and an unlikely scenario, at the back of my mind before the Event I had feared that the only viable Bad Weather Alternative was abandonment at Garrigill.
It wouldn’t have been a popular or easy decision to make.
There are few ‘show–stoppers’ in the British hills at this time of year. Apart from electrical storms the most likely by far is wind and this would have to be in the region of 50+ mph to prevent onward progress.
The conditions on Cross Fell have been described as ‘challenging’, ‘atrocious’, ‘appalling’ etc. but fortunately the wind was nowhere near that strong.
The Marshals at Greg’s Hut did all the right things especially enforcing grouping over the plateau. The entrants did the rest with a magnificent 420 of you reaching Dufton thus justifying the decision to continue. It was an amazing effort – I was at Dufton and heard the tales!
The old saying that ‘there’s no such thing as bad weather only unsuitable clothing’ has more than a grain of truth in it and lessons may have been learnt by a few. Most will have gained useful experience of what the Northern Pennines can offer. Thank goodness we decided to use the Dun Fell road rather than continuing on the Pennine Way into Dufton.
Navigation has undoubtedly been revolutionised by the use of GPS despite the misgivings of the traditionalists. Hopefully the provided GPS track was useful on the night?
I had problems with the earlier versions of Satmap when it was wet though the Active 20 may have solved that. I currently use a Garmin Oregon 600 which hasn’t let me down yet.
Well done to everyone.

I would like to echo how brilliant the marshalls were at Greg's Hut. They made absolutely the right call with the grouping up and strong warnings about clothing. The glow sticks were invaluable for guidance but visibilty was so poor that you could not always see one to the next. I do not have a gps and would have definitely got lost if I hadn't been grouped with someone who had. This was my first Hundred and I am full of gratitude for the way the entire event was organised and how we wewre looked after so well at the checkpoints. Thank you so much.
Gareth Egarr

The wonderful marshals at Greg's Hut did everything they could to ensure the safety of entrants . It's “only” c 3.5 miles over to the tarmac access road but the weather on the tops was truly atrocious . I dislike being grouped up on events , preferring the going it solo approach , but I was grateful for the collective camaraderie of others & gallows humour that such situations demand as we headed out of the hut . The marshals clearly told those who were in the hut that you cannot see further than your hand on the tops & instructed those still not wearing waterproofs (despite it chucking it down as we left Garrigill) to layer up . That said there was still one person we came across from the summit still wearing shorts ,around 2300 Saturday .

All those taking part are adults & should have sufficient navigational ability & clothing to cope with such extreme conditions but the reality will prove different . Some made the correct call for them to go back down to Garrigill , others to keep calm & carry on over the top to Dufton . The marshals at Greg's Hut all seemed to be from the organising team & will know “their” area better than anyone to make the call which route to take . If the alternative avoiding Cross Fell was in spate you can understand why this was not used & equally I don't think it could have been foreseen how much conditions would deteriorate so quickly up there : when I arrived in Garrigill around 2000 it was mild & dry ! One of the marshals had spent two hours “planting” the glow sticks over Cross Fell so spare a thought for this endeavour , before then spending a somewhat memorable overnight shift at the Hut with minimal facilities !

I have decent waterproofs but the rain across the tops was swirling round that much by Dufton everything was soaking . On the plus side of course this coincided with the breakfast bag so a complete change necessitated to dry clothing at least for a while . The photos posted on a separate thread of entrants at Watersmeeting (how appropriate !!!) just about sum up this soggy 100 : I think that's me on the 15th pic crossing the bridge with the orange rucksack cover! The weather hadn't done with us there ; on the road toward Allendale Town & the final self clip it was like being hosed down at a jet wash ! Certainly memorable , perhaps there should be t shirts with the slogan “I survived the Hadrian 100” !

The aim of my post was to explain our decisions as some verbal feedback we received was wondering why we did not invoke the alternative route. I spoke to a few at the end and explained but others I did not catch and they all deserved an explanation. From looking at the forum and Facebook (something new for me ) its been a real challenge and I am a little sad due to a chronic achilles injury I could not do the longer walks all in one go. I am truly sorry that the weather was so bad and if you are feeling nostalgic what was missed in the gloom go back and have a look at David Morgan's marshal's walk video of the same area just a couple of weeks or so ago. The bad part of me says weather forecasts were low cloud and rain so should have been forewarned but that's not the story of so many good people completing all or part of the Northumbria 100 challenge

Dave
my comment wasn't a criticism about going over cross fell I was pointing out that cross fell provided the most challenging 100 night sections ive experienced and with out the kit I took may have been in trouble and anybody who wants to skimp on kit should read this forum or similar reports on the conditions that could be faced , I along with a lot of other I imagine learnt a lot of good lessons this year, GPS being the major one.
thanks for a great weekend shame about the weather

Hi Dave, thank you for insisting we don any additional clothing we were carrying, and for grouping us before we left Greg's Hut. My navigational abilities were very sub-standard (for me) by this time. I had replaced my cap (with visor) with a hat (no visor) and was having to wipe my glasses every 5 or 6 steps, so couldn't read RD, nor navigate with map and compass. We were stumbling on the rocks in the wind and wet, a bit like skittles, every time someone stood up, another of the group fell down. Yes... Very challenging. I've always been of the opinion that with a good RD and map and compass, why would you need a GPS. Well, that's all changed now. At times we were less than 10m from the path, but couldn't see it, and didn't know if it was left or right. With GPS, we could navigate back to the path. I learnt quite a few valuable lessons.
1. as a glasses wearer, wear a hat with a visor, rather than a (very slightly) warmer hat without one. 2. if I cannot navigate, shelter til daylight or travel in a group. 3. get myself a GPS (Active 20 with full UK OS seems to be a pricey option, but comments on LDWA forum seem to favour it, albeit with flaws). 4. if groups coalesce, re-divide to ensure no-one gets lost. (it was easier to lose someone from a larger group than a smaller one).
Thanks to Yizzy for gps'ing us from Cross Fell to the road after Great Dunn Fell.
Thanks to all the marshals. Although I retired at CP7 with blisters, the marshals made it a much better experience.

Hi everyone, just to clear up this subject and our decision to continue with the route over Cross Fell. The alternative route was in place in case of the fierce Helm wind that guide books will tell you is one of the strongest in England and can be dangerous to unexpected and ill equipped walkers. We walked the route from Gregs hut and the summit of Cross Fell late Saturday afternoon and all agreed that with markings , glow sticks and a plan to group walkers it would be walkable. We also knew having walked the alternative route less than two weeks ago that the burn was already high and with the rain and the water teaming off the mountain on the day it would be a greater danger to walk it as the path is very near the burn and would be flooded and impassable in places. I would like to say a massive thank you to those who shared the experiences of LDWA challenge walking in poor conditions. Firstly our new friend from Norfolk who provided almost a modern miracles with one bag of tea bags, one small jar of coffee , limited water , milk and sugar . Hot drinks for everyone who needed cheering up or in distress. Then my friend of nearly 40 years Ricky Scott that provided the push to get no one back out on their own , over 100 presentations to groups of new friends. Our guardian angels , the mountain rescue crew just appeared , guess they came for our staff barbecue but they simply looked after so many until walkers were able to either continue or walk back to Garrigle which by the way is around 1.30 hours by 4X4 and so treacherous. Lastly two young lads one of which was on a four month walk from Devon up to top end of Scotland who had simply called in to stay at the bothy , they made sure the fire kept burning. Sorry our weather made life miserable but hope it does not put you off coming back at some stage to see our lovely countryside

As cross fell proved Saturday evening !!

John, if you've never got hypothermia on a challenge event then lucky you, but I would dispute your suggestion that anyone who does so must have been acting recklessly by failing to dress appropriately for the conditions. I'm not self-confident (or rash) enough to think that I know better than the organisers what clothing may be necessary for the area and time of year, so I will always pack at least the minimum advised and often an extra layer or two to be on the safe side - and yet I've gone all out hypothermic on two events, and was getting seriously chilled on a third when I decided to retire rather than risk going as far as hypothermia again. I'm not a medic but I'd guess there may be a physiological factor - some people's bodies are just better at retaining heat than others'.

Anyway, I would like to add my thanks to the organisers for not only putting in a massive amount of time and effort to enable the event to take place, but carefully studying the route and highlighting potential hazards in order to minimise the risk to entrants. Now if you'll excuse me, I've got a risk assessment for a future event to write...

I think we have beaten this subject to death by now, but as the oldest member of the organising committee can I be allowed a (hopefully) last comment. I am in awe of the fact that a number of people have been prepared to devote a large part of their lives for the last 3 years to producing this event. There have been 14 committee meetings plus innumerable ad hoc meetings and phone conversations.Many thousands of miles have been travelled, for the most part without a penny of expenses being claimed. As Treasurer and living on the other side of the Pennines I have had a minor role in the practical development of the event, but the fact that I have around 2000 incoming emails in my Hadrian Hundred folder should give an idea of the scale.

With the big day rapidly approaching and the workload reaching a climax, people can be forgiven for some techiness in their response to persistent questions which seem to doubt their competence or attention to detail. By all means ask a question or make a complaint but please bear the above in mind. Above all enjoy the Hadrian Hundred. It will be wonderful.

Hi, Jeff, Dave etc. Totally agree with any comments re safety problems faced by any Hundred organisers. The vast majority of the field will be safe, barring accidents, in virtually any conditions which are thrown at us. However, organisers will feel they have to do their best to cater for the small number of individuals who will not and who become both a danger to themselves and others. It totally infuriates me when I hear of people suffering from hypothermia as, barring incapacitating accidents, this should not happen. All major events stipulate a minimum of clothing to be worn or carried, but as the old saying goes 'You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink', and, for whatever reason - probably the loss of a few minutes - these people will not stop to don extra clothing until it is too late.
I have done the Fellsman many times and been forcibly grouped with some real idiots over the years. What I love about the 100's is that we are treat as adults; which the vast majority of us are, and we will behave responsibly. Long may the organisers of 100's continue to trust us, but we have to play our part and earn that trust and cause them as few unnecessary problems as possible.
Re GPS use: I see no problem in using them. I have gone horizontal many times when navigating at night with a map compass and torch in hand. However, I do wonder sometimes how many people nowadays can navigate with map and compass. I am a little concerned as to why events such as the 100 allow people to carry electronic devices only as they can fail, whereas a map and compass never do. Are the old skills slowly dying out (lol).
Once again, in advance I would like to thank everyone connected with this 100 as, whatever my own fate, I am sure is going to be one to remember, covering some truly wonderful open country. Just one thing, please promise me that there will be no cheese and onion pies/pasties this time.

Hi IAN
I am Just happy we have all these enthusiastic people going out of their way to set all the challengers for us to enjoy.
Before joining the long distance walkers association I only dreamed about any of these great walks. I Have been looking at some of these posts and majority of people put nice things on and ask questions about challenge walks and other things.

The thing about the English language is everyone sees and interprets it differently . For me I saw this topic and was upset that someone took a swipe at the officials. Then when I saw other comments some come over as cynical answers or questions . which if you see a couple of reply's
I took a swipe at what I thought was someone I thought was being sarcastic at the officials.

When I looked further into it I was probably wrong and feel a bit of a wally. .But from my point I thought I was only backing the officials up.
From this I take your point and I am going to stop using the forum after the 100 Because I miss interpret a lot of what questions people put on.
and it upsets me when someone puts a cynical question on .

The other point about GPS I actually like for safety and it keeps us straying onto areas we should not be on.
Many thanks Jeff

My days of walking the Hundreds and helping out on them are now over. Reading some of the posts on the forum I'm pleased I'm no longer involved in any organized LDWA events, just incase someone whats to sue me over something. It looks like that gone are the days that people turned up on walks for a laugh & a joke while out enjoying themselves while others did all the work. I would guess that around 200+ helpers will be out on the event, all unpaid and doing it for their love of walking and the LDWA. We are all adults doing a sport we love and being adults we are responsible for our own safety. Just be thankful for all the people who will put in many hours of work on the event and organizers who have put in around 3 years of work.

I now it won't happen but it would be nice to get back to the days before forums and GPS. The fun part of the Hundred for me was to find my way around and sometime go wrong. On some hundreds I did not read the route discretion until I was walking it, all good fun and I thank the LDWA for many years of enjoyment.

Ian.

Thanks to both for the kind words and it makes me think that for future 100 events there must be a better way to challenge the Risk assessment and route without resorting to waiting until the event is just about to take part. It was not a pleasant experience to read the original posting especially as the area in question was not in my view properly researched and a total lack of respect for LDWA members who has spent along with our route manager and others including two coordinators ensuring that all statutory authorities (not the HSE that's work related) understood what our plans were and any other relevant plans just in case. No apologies needed but it leaves a poor taste in the mouth and hope its not repeated in the same way for future 100 events as its such a wonderful occasion. I wish you all well and happy walking and see you at the weekend its only a few days away.

Hi John
From a hikers point doing the 100 we are all to a point experienced hikers and will probably be all OK on the day in any kind of
weather. From the Northumbrian ldwa official point they have to do a risk assessment to get upto 550 walkers/hikers over 100 miles and think of any eventuality that may be thrown at them. Keeping them fed and motivated when times of doubt. .This is a massive fete to try to get a risk assessment that the HSE would be happy with if anything happened to anyone . The amount of planning on this point would have taken the officials a long time and upmost in their minds is all our safety and also not going over the top on equipment that we would have to carry.

I did the fellsman this year and on parts the weather was atrocious at times when you go into a tent and you see experienced hikers/runners shaking heavily with extreme cold/hypothermia and having to quit it brings this home.

There were times i as divering and just have to keep going otherwise i would probably stopped myself i was walking with a group who were experienced and highly motivated which kept me going.

I am not an official but i understand their point in saying these things ,They are only trying to make it as enjoyable and as safe for us all but have to think heavily from their side of the risks.
Regards Jeff

Are we getting this a little out of context? I traversed Cross Fell and its associates over 30 tears back - pre-paving days - when soloing the PW using only the Wainwright guide and a compass as someone had 'borrowed' my maps at an earlier night stop. Although the visibility was down to around 25 yards, I don't remember having any real difficulty navigating. Re The Helm, I'm sure we have all walked in severe winds and I can't think of any precipices up there that we might get blown off. I would be amazed if the emergency route came into play, after all we are all experienced fellwalkers

I was ahead of you, I have found Trout Beck on Bing maps, as you say it is pretty straight forward, thanks.

Not sure why this is being questioned at length, there is plenty of posts on this thread going over safety and our steps and also reminder we have been scrutinised by three lots of Safety advisory groups. This is emergency planning in case the Helm wind which is a late winter/spring wind appears and we wont know that until nearer the time. The information on the alternative route has been provided by our route writer to give a brief but informative piece and by simply looking at the OS map you can get a good idea of the route. I walked it Saturday without any Route description. If we need to make any late changes to the published route then you will be informed asap. Incidentally if we used the alternative route then as you live not so far from Blackpool you would appreciate the markers we would put into place all lit up. Please trust us rather than keep questioning our emergency planning and enjoy the walk and watch if you have not already David Morgan's video when he is on the top of Cross fell . We look forward to meeting you at the start as its your first I believe and also my checkpoint at Gregs Hut .

Am I being stupid here but I am looking at Version 6 of the Route Description (updated MAY 2019)

It has this paragraph

There will be markers and lights over the summit plateau but note that this can be a serious place and requires appropriate equipment and experience. There will be a bad weather alternative from Garrigill via Tyne Head and Trout Beck if necessary.

That is it as far as bad weather route is concerned.

I guess I am not looking at the correct document.

Just to add I hope you have downloaded the latest route description which has details of the alternative route which is clearly shown on a OS map and begins at Garigill.

The point is that the post had not been thought through as clearly the area is not known to the person.
When we are within a week of the Marshals event and three for the main event this forum should not have brought to everyone's attention a serious safety issue when the route and associated assessments have been online for nearly a year. There are plans in place for bad weather and the LDWA people I met near Cross Fell on Saturday will vouch that we were once again checking the alternative route. Please let this rest and accept we have done so much to ensure the enjoyment of the route and the challenge is a safe as it can be.

I find it strange that John Pennifold is being answered in such an offhand way. I too wondered about the bad weather route, and assumed that the organisers would be posting its description in due course before the event. I had hoped I could go through it in conjunction with the map, like I have done with the main route description, as part of my duty to the organisers not to get myself lost. I feel this is more important with the bad weather route as it is likely that more navigation mistakes would be made in bad weather, at night.

Hi there
I second that sorry about missing people out
Regards jeff

apologies for a couple of typos on my previous posting I cannot find my specs , put them down somewhere in the house

Thanks for all the kind words. Just a few to add we would not be in the good position without help from our 100 treasurer Tony Willey lakeland ldwa shattand wise words from John SparsSparshatt out ldwa national link. I will at the start saying a few words and I will be asking for a round of applause for the three ldwa groups who have put so much work in over the last three years. hope you have a lovely weekend as good as the marshals walk.

Hi Jo Great to here from you .
I just dont think we give the organisers enough credit these events take years to plan and
to a hi standard and also to the walkers we are very capable with out someone preaching
safety and trying to rock the boat . And not even doing the walk .

The great thing about these walks are all the different walkers coming together and all the helpers
who dont get paid helping out and they are as much a part of the special event as us also
for the Cumbrian ldwa for all there hard work seeing what they have spent years getting ready
and finally being able to rest when the hike is complete and the last walker has come in.

Bit silly from me but buzzing for the hike jeff

Hear, hear Jeff. I agree with ALL you have said in your last comment.
Three cheers for Bill! You've been patient! Your time and effort, I'm sure, is very much appreciated by many.

Jeff Stevens. Thanks for your support. Its nice to be appreciated

Hi There]
I did the Marsden Meander and this was a talking point.We are totally with the Northumbrian ldwa on this .
We are all more or less professional walkers And have done many walks in bad conditions by the time we get to this point.
If the weather was bad we would have the sense to group together and help each other out.

The Northumbrian group have put a lot of time and effort into this and And I know if i have any problems they will be able to assist in any way
At the end of the day i want to walk and enjoy with as little assistance as possible . But i know it is there if needed.

Thank you Northumbria for your excellent route and all the effort you have put in and i know it will be a huge success.
Many thanks Jeff.

John Pennifold, since you are so full of good ideas on this, why dont you come along and man the checkpoint on the top of Cross Fell. We would be happy to leave all these decisions up to you, Otherwise please stop interfering in something that really has nothing to do with you

Dave, Please don't fall into the trap of thinking that those who are the most vocal and critical on social media are representative of the majority of LDWA members' opinions. I know that the organisers are fully aware that the purpose of a bothy is to provide shelter to whoever happens to need it. I know what to expect on Cross Fell in the dark, and any flagging will be much appreciated, thank-you.

A nice warm cosy fire! Oh no - I'll have to make a 'promise to self' to make sure I get out of there. Please do 'kick me out'!!

Personally I have no concerns regarding 'safety' - everything feels really well thought through - and its been made easy to cross the short summit - all lit up. Much is in the hands of the participants - ensuring the right clothing is carried to keep warm and dry. It can be cold up there - even in good weather.

I am now rather upset by the posts with around 1 week to go and four weeks to the event and the Risk assessment and route has been on the website for many a month. Its obvious from me that the people on the post are ready at this stage to doubt my and others H&S experience and qualifications. Additionally its quite noticeable that knowledge of the area is perhaps not what it should be, Gregs hut is just a short distance from the flat summit and then the walk off the summit is just a short walk. Perhaps look in Pennie way guide books and get a feel for the area but as I already explained there will be luminated markers to guide people which if you look at the spine race is not afforded. I also wonder if you have been in Gregs hut which is two roomed and we will have a fire burning and a welcome for all the entrants. Over crowding we will manage and get people safety on their way .

Another obvious difficult question is "As the LDWA does not have exclusive use of Greg's Hut, what will happen if the hut is already full or becomes full, with non-LDWA walkers before or during the event?"

Deirdre, yes the Bad Weather Route can easily be seen on the map. The question is of course, what conditions would lead to it being instigated? How would walkers be informed of the route change? What about walkers already on the way to, or already at Greg's Hut? What about walkers returning from Cross Fell to Gregs hut because of difficult conditions? What about walkers making their own judgement about the prevailing conditions and deciding to take the Bad Weather Route despite it not being officially sanctioned; would they be disqualified for using their own discretion?
These are the difficult sort of questions which can easily be anticipitated and planned for.

I find it interesting that I am being investigated to see if I am an entrant, presumably because I am asking difficult questions. I hope that I'm not about to be told that I need to be an entrant in order to contribute to this forum.
A lot of people will have been on H&S courses during their professional working lives. Probably the one thing that they remember from those courses is the answer to the question "Who is responsible for H&S?"
The answer is of course "Everybody".
I have a strong commitment to the LDWA and the safety of its members, and asking difficult questions is just a part of this.

The bad weather route via Tyne Head is clear on the map.No need for complicated electronics ar advanced techonology. Don't you just love maps.

John, are you an entrant?
I can’t find your name on the list.

Dave Clifton, surely the whole point of a Risk Assessment IS to plan for such occurrences? After all, it mentions such things as 'Pathless rough ground' and 'Stones of path could be slippery'
The RD mentions a bad weather option route for Cross Fell, so I was just wondering where to find it?
Then, if such a plan exists, it would make sense for walkers to be told about it and for the organisers to know how and when to implement it.

The risk assessment cannot cover natural events such as Fire rain flood or wind or hurricanes. Its a hard enough job detailing risks and hazards and then putting it to three county council Safety advisory committees plus their partners including emergency services and all passed the route and Assessments without comment on a natural very rare wind. Rest assured we will have safety in mind and two out of three marshals at Gregs hut have extensive Health and Safety experience, the third has extensive hundred experience and within a mile is the raynet operators and Mountain Rescue will be based in Garigill. Nothing is perfect but a great deal of thought and time has been put into this event and its route. The route over Cross fell a national trail will be lit up and well marked.

I assume you're doing the marshals' walk John, so worried in case storm Hannah is still cross next weekend. I'm sure the locals have a plan. If the weather is truly awful, then maybe the safest option would be for everyone to walk together, with an experienced leader.

I see that the RD refers to a Bad Weather alternative route via Tyne Head & Trout Back. I don't see this route detailed in the RD though. Nor can I see a GPX file for it.
Shouldn't these be released in advance of the event?
In addition, I looked in the Risk Assessment and there appears to be no mention of the risk of the Helm Wind, nor of an alternative route should it be blowing nor any mention of the circumstances and conditions which would trigger a change of route.
On the subject of Greg's Hut, the Risk Assessment make no mention of its small size nor of the dangers of overcrowding nor what to do if the Bad Weather route option is actived while people are in transit.