‘Dibbing’ is the obvious and elegant solution but unfortunately the system is prohibitively expensive for small individual Events. Perhaps National could investigate the possibility of purchasing this on a larger scale for local group use?

1. Completely agree with this comment. There is enough money in the bank to purchase the equipment which could then be rented from the national committee for the longer events, E.G. the 100 and 50+ events. The cost of renting would be passed onto the entrants via the fees, and whilst the national committee may never recroup its investment, it will have purchased a system that will be used on numerous occasions. The cost of any lost equipemt would have to be borne by the group renting.

I also have great reservations about sweeping which is a traditional and much loved activity! The sweepers can only follow the prescribed route and it’s not much use if someone is off route and lost. It’s disconcerting for an organiser when the sweep team arrives back before the participants! It can admittedly be useful to help back markers along who would otherwise have retired.

2. Agree again, and that's why we on the Bath Beat no longer have sweepers for exactly the reasons outlined. The people who get lost are not on the route, and so the sweeper's job, whilst highly sought after, no longer applies on our event!

I suggest we have cctv at each checkpoint, with electronic ankle manacles if the former doesn't work.

to add to this post- we at checkpoint one on Smugglers Trod today found out we were missing one person. He definitately was not clipped/number not cut off from his tally card and not recorded on the tally board. Raynet confirmed it- he was late starting off.

So a clip could be regarded as a double check to a voice check. We cut off the number/checkpoint at the checkpoint (same as clipping) and record on a tallyboard from a voice call.

Where possible missing persons are concerned a double even triple check is good- with large numbers of people involved in the event especialy! With peoples' lives at risk it will be better to play safe even in the "safest" appearing events.That way we can cover ourselves as an organisation.

I wondered this year if we should continue with clipping tally cards at our Event as John is quite right – the cards are not checked! In the end I didn’t have the courage to change the system and everyone does seem to expect the magic clipper at checkpoints.
It should be enough to visually check tally cards and record the numbers though as Ian says clipping does force an actual physical check and prevents the hurried ‘wave and shout’ syndrome.
It is easy enough anyway at busy times to fail to record the odd person even though their tally has been clipped.
Perhaps a compromise where cards are only clipped at self-clip check points would make checking more likely. Doing away with self-clips does seem a step too far and would certainly encourage some to be economical with the Route Description!

‘Dibbing’ is the obvious and elegant solution but unfortunately the system is prohibitively expensive for small individual Events. Perhaps National could investigate the possibility of purchasing this on a larger scale for local group use?

I have never been a great fan of kit checks – they always seem to be done by traffic wardens! In the good old days of the 4-3000’s we always used to dump everything back in the car afterwards on the assumption that if you couldn’t tie it round your waist it wasn’t worth taking!
Now turned gamekeeper we insist on appropriate clothing, waterproofs and footwear plus a working torch being carried for night sections with the awesome threat of possible spot checks – Wow!!
Needless to say nobody has yet spotted a check as we do like to think the vast majority of our clientele are sensible adults who should be allowed to take responsibility for their own safety.

I also have great reservations about sweeping which is a traditional and much loved activity! The sweepers can only follow the prescribed route and it’s not much use if someone is off route and lost. It’s disconcerting for an organiser when the sweep team arrives back before the participants! It can admittedly be useful to help back markers along who would otherwise have retired.

Well I must still be John's good books, ( not through lack of trying) he's just e-mailed me 2 jokes. And yes John I am that bloke sat on the porch, but I got there too early in life. :-)





ian.

Re tally clips again. Organisers only have to issue a plastic id card with the entrants number, bit of string, around the neck or tied up appropriately. Entrant shows id card at checkpoints, checkpoint folks write down number, no need to clip anything, reduce checkpoint manning; job done. For the life of me, why clip when no one checks a clipped card. Perhaps I'm missing something here.

John King - I thought a dibber was a garden implement!

Ian - you betray your Yorkshire roots by sweeping as a way to escape walk fees. Now I know how you afforded those Primark socks

In answer John King's post.

Yes in my opinion that is the way forward and I seem to remember using them once, maybe on a hundred but can't remember now.

ian.

John wants to know why we (LDWA) clips tallies.

Well John its quite easy really, If runner and walkers where given numbers most would just walk passed the checkpoint staff and shout their number out and continue on their way. How will the checkpoint staff know it's the right number without looking at it. So by clipping it, the tally has to be handed over to be clipped and the number can then be checked and recorded.

Re sweep team dashing off in all directions.

Some sweep members I've seen in the past have trouble keeping up with the back markers and in no fit state to dash anywhere.(ho no was that a foot in mouth moment)

If someone is missing from one checkpoint the experienced sweeper will know not to panic and dash off anywhere. Sweepers will only get mildly concerned if the walker misses two checkpoints.

After all John don't we only sweep walks so we get to do the walk for nowt. ;-) ( That's two foot in mouth comments in one post)

ian.

I would suggest Ditching Tally Cards in favour of DIBBERS that way ther is little chance of missing out self clips etc and using any old clip, plus using the right equipment would mean the organisers would know the where abouts of all entrants and this would aid safety and logistical considerations at checkpoints.

I don`t know but it is possible that several folk already have there own dibber therefore a unique number that identifies them and remains the same where ever the dibber is used this again would aid logistics.

Again I don`t know but if the LDWA was to adopt dibbers at C/Ps then it may be possible to organise a group buy at discounted prices for people that prefer to own there own dibber rather than pay a small rental for each event they do.

Just a thought ;-)

Eileen, you jogged my memory about my first wife, also named Eileen. A Roman Catholic, she also had an issue about condoms - spooky revisitations!

I have to say I am confused on how condoms got into this post. Eileen you must elaborate, Personally I haven't needed them for years after being doctored. But since I can only score with grannies anyway, it doesn't make a fat lot of difference.

If we have a walks number, ie ID card I cant see why we have clips as nobody checks them out. If anyone is missing anyway, do the sweepers dash off in all directions to find them?

" Continual fence around these issues of health and safety"

Being a adult I know what I'm letting myself in for when I enter a walk. If it's a normal walk, say under 30 miles I can't see the point in carrying the kitchen sink with me. If it's a longer walk then yes I would take a food with me.

Years ago when I was out walking every weekend I was amazed at how few of our (LDWA) members could read a map, or was it a case of, I'm to lazy to get it out of my rucksack when it's much easier to follow the one in front. I can tell you a few have come unstuck when following me in the dark or mist. The one's that really got on my nerves where the one's that would walk 10 or so yards at back of me so letting me do all the map reading. More then once I've left them in the pitch black in a middle of a wood looking for me. I didn't wear a black hooded top for nothing when out walking at night.

Until an LDWA group has the balls to clamp down and pull out everybody who fails a kit check, walkers / runners will continue to skimp on the gear they carry.

But let me add. At work it's Health and Safety MAD. I go walking for fun, I'm a bloody adult, I'm responsible for my own safety when doing a walk. I don't want to be told that I might trip up, or if it rains I'll get wet and havens above I don't what telling to look out for cars when crossing a road.

All these people who hide behind the health and safety issue all the time, have maybe forget how sometime's it can be fun to take risks.

ian.

No, eviewers look elsewhere I know! Nite nite.

ha! But doesn't it keep the eviewers viewing!

We'll have to stop meeting like this.

Nite Nite, Eileen Greenwood.

Nite nite Ian Sykes.

Mind you a few condoms don't weight much, That is until I looked into my now ex army boyfriend's rucksack and saw his condom cache at a 1000 or so! (i didn'tsee how many were used).

Enough said on here by me I think!

" But make sure the organising event say so in advance"

The Cleveland Group did so, more then once. But still a few did not bother to obey the rules. You will always get people who don't believe the rule's apply to them.

Off to bed

ian.

yes a double decker for sure! But make sure the organising event say so in advance. I always carry what I need on events except bivvy bags. Not condoms of course- just the army carry those.

Ermm clip prinks. prink clips. prick clips.. ouch?? That would stop them!

when do I prink or crip.....

The White Peak 100 was a LDWA event.

Yes you must keep a record of the walkers going round the event, that is why you have a tally and get clipped and recorded on tick sheets at checkpoints.

If you did not have to be clipped at checkpoints then some people would miss then out, so they would be no record of them being there.

Re Kit Checks. I can remember when Wheeldale Tandem clamped down on it. They pulled around 10 out at Stape but that was just a one off.
If your going to enforce the kit check then do it. Check everybody's kit half way round and pull out every body that fails. But make sure you have a bus there to bring everybody back that dose fail.

ian.

I'll hop off my box now to see if any rugby players in the bothy...

And what kit is carried in case of a broken ankle etc. Walkers and runners included- it is easy to do at any age especially in winter icy conditions.

The Fellsman isn't an Ldwa challenge event, nor is the White peak.

I understand what John is about. It isn't about the time of eventeers but more about their safety for LDWA events whether runners or walkers. We need to know where they/when rather than what speed they are going at?

But yes John. You have a point, we have been ignoring it as it's best to ignore so far.

But with more and more runners joining then maybe safety with kits checks is a point to re look at?

As for tally cards,until speeds of walks/runs need checking/verifying- then why bother?

Can we take it that John as never done the Fellsman. And I can remember a few people on the White Peak 100 being sent back around 2 miles to a self clip that they had missed.

ian.

well, on Smugglers Trod- we have to actually snip off the checkpoint tally with scissors! How many times have we nearly snipped off our fingers or some other body parts of ours or theirs! Especially with cold numb fingers even in summer in ealry morning with cold east wind?

But then we have the tally to check with. And the missing ones either are missing or we missed 'em!

Until the next checkpoint.

I was going to put this topic in my next column as Local Groups Sec in Strider but what the hell, here we go...........

How many tally cards are checked for the requisite clip pricks on a Challenge? Assume, say eight checkpoints and what, 250 entrants on average on a Challenge, that's 2000 little boxes to check off for the different impressions. No organisers can possibly scan all these cards, it's Alice in Wonderland stuff.

If one misses a self clip, the subsequent clippers can be used to clip one that is missed because no-one can possibly check all those individual pricks. So, why have anything other than an id card to tick off at the checkpoint to ensure that the entrant is safe and secure ? If anyone wishes to cheat, they are only fooling themselves.

Similarly, how many Challenges now have kit checks? I can recall the Phoenix in the North, any in other regions? I recently did a Challenge on which several folks didn't even have a sack so no waterproofs, no rations etc. Then, the perennial question of runners and their minimalist approach to "safety and security". I find it fascinating how we (individually, not as a body or association) continually fence around these issues of health and safety.