Latest News: Read more



Discussion Forum - The Bothy - 24 hours


Author: Rob Richardson
Posted: Tue 15th Feb 2011, 20:35
Joined: 1986
Local Group: South Wales
Speaking as a former member of a large running club, London entries worked like this:
Fast club runners could qualify for the AAA race by achieving the required qualifying time and getting a guaranteed entry. All the rest went into the official marathon ballot and crossed their fingers. The unlucky ones could put their names in the hat to get a chance of winning one of the 3 'club' places.
It was deemed to be a fair system of allocating places in an over subscribed event.
Whilst giving out 3 places per group seems to be a good way of distributing some of the entries, you are still left with the problem of allocating the remainder in an acceptable way.
Author: Nigel Coe
Posted: Sun 13th Feb 2011, 18:48
Joined: 2009
Local Group: Lakeland
I like the idea of allocating some entries for the groups to dish out, in that it’d reward those who have put something into their group. These group entries need not overwhelm the traditional entries. I believe the London Marathon gives 3 entries per running club. The LDWA doing the same would account for 43 x 3 = 129 entries, leaving 401 for ordinary allocation.
Author: Michael Childs
Posted: Wed 19th Jan 2011, 10:04
Joined: 1990
Local Group: Dorset
Hello Michael,Diane, Jack and Maise, it is nice to have some good new questions.

"100" is a nice traditional figure and experience suggests that a 100 miles is about the limit that most walkers will want to do as a continuous walk over 48 hours. i.e. pretty tough, but do-able. As to it being a flagship event, that is not official policy, just what some people believe. But the "100 " is an unique event and a lot of fun (really...it is )

"The 100" is the longest official LDWA challenge event, but there are many other excellent events organised by LDWA local groups that are just as much fun.

In my opinion, it is actually the 50 mile and 100 kilometre events organised by individual local groups that set the real benchmark for the LDWA challenge events. ( e.g. the Dorset Giant, Wellington Boot, Surrey Tops, the Three Rings of Shap) These are all wonderful, tough walks and in many ways may be no less challenging than the 100 mile event. It is on these more local events that you see the traditional LDWA at its wonderful, self effacing best. It is expected that you should be able to complete one of these longer events, before being accepted for the 100 mile event.

The "100" Organisers don't really want many enthusiastic (but relatively inexperienced walkers) who have never done more than about 30 miles (for example) entering the 100 mile event, only to find out it that it wasn't really their bag - that would not be not good for them, and not good for the event.

A 100 kilometre event is really good experience and an achievement in itself , and it helps to find out if you are really able and willing to carry on the extra distance of 100 miles. Like you say. let your feet do the talking.

Also, there are a number of LDWA "Triple Challenge" events, where in 3 successive years you have to complete different 100 Kilometre (or 50 mile) events - that is pretty challenging . A lot of people think that the Triples are as much (if not more) of an achievement than the 100 mile event.
Author: Michael Mattison
Posted: Mon 17th Jan 2011, 22:50
Joined: 2018
Local Group: West Yorkshire
why is it that the flagship event is 100 miles long. why is the flagship, only one event .why do we have to qualify for the event and when we do qualify for the flagship why is it only at one event and not a sieris of events.like a sort of blue ribbon set of events ,to enable u to qualify for tha main event .maybe half a dozen events should sort out them that really want to do the flagship,like qualification for mont blonk give em points say 1 for 26, 2points for 50 ,4 points for a hundred ,maybe 8 points to get in the flagship ?ldwa, let the feet do the talking
Author: David Morgan
Posted: Thu 13th Jan 2011, 19:04
Joined: 1994
Local Group: South Wales
As long as it's advertised well in previous Striders, I take no issue with having the ballot sooner rather than later. At the end of the day, as long as every person has had a fair chance to register, then the ballot can go ahead. Accommodation is always an issue, but thankfully, I've always been ok. It'll be interesting for London during the Olympic festivities!!!! Getting decent priced accommodation will be a challenge in itself!!!
Author: John Dally
Posted: Thu 13th Jan 2011, 16:35
Joined: 1990
Local Group: East Yorkshire
Re all the arguements regarding the use of ballots or the first come first serve . There is no perfect system which will satisfy everybody. I myself thought Heart Of Scotland got it about right, other than that the time allowed in which to apply was, in my opinion, far too long.
No one has mentioned that booking of accommodation is a real problem as, with the event taking place over a bank holiday, most hotels, B&B's etc. demand bookings covering the entire three nights, together with a non-returnable deposit - in my case £50 in Dunkeld. These bookings have to be made early and, in the case of HOS, I had many anxious weeks waiting to discover if I had a place.
This year, I along with others have booked a holiday cottage and, to ensure we all had places,we got ourselves organised and entered asap.
If there is to be a ballot, I have no problem with the system as employed on the HOS, but feel that the ballot, if necessary, should be activated after not more than four weeks from the opening date which would probably have to be earlier.
Organisers are never going to satisfy everybody, but they should be able to treat us as adults and not disorganised children.
Author: Paul Miller
Posted: Sun 9th Jan 2011, 17:28
Joined: 1986
I have spent some time reading through this thread, and the point I was going to mention has only been touched upon briefly in one post. One event I was lucky to get accepted for last year was the Ultra Trail du Mont Blanc. This was seriously over-subscribed. I believe for the 2300 limit something like 3000 applied.

However, those unlucky not to be accepted via the ballot are guaranteed entry the following year as long as they still met the qualifying stardard when applying.

Perhaps if future 100's are over-subscribed, a similar policy could be considered to ensure that all who want to do the 100 can fulfill their ambitions.
Author: W. Paul Tremere
Posted: Sun 9th Jan 2011, 16:03
Joined: 1989
Local Group: East Yorkshire
How long before Hundred entries are for sale on eBay?
Author: John Sparshatt
Posted: Fri 7th Jan 2011, 15:14
Joined: 1983
Local Group: West Yorkshire
To answer David Kearns post. The staggered start on the Yoredale did not cause major problems. However bunching and congestion did occur at Horton-in-Ribbledale in a small village hall. Yes the earlier starts were to get some modest paced walkers over Ingleborough before dark.

There was no formal motion at the 2010 AGM just a show of hands from about a hundred people present at the open forum which is hardly representative of those wishing to take part in our flagship event.
Author: Ian Sykes
Posted: Fri 7th Jan 2011, 14:18
Joined: 1986
Local Group: East Yorkshire
Please ignore the "He" on the last line.

One day I'll learn to read my posts before posting.

ian.
Author: Ian Sykes
Posted: Fri 7th Jan 2011, 14:14
Joined: 1986
Local Group: East Yorkshire
Tony thank you for your illuminating post. The last 100 I entered as a entrant was Dartmoor and of course we all entered by post from a given date.

It would be interesting to know the ratio of web entries via postal entries and when most web entries where received. If the vast majority of web entries was before the postal entries where even received, then yes IMO a ballet is the only fair way forward.

He I know I'm changing horses is mid steam and I'm not ashamed to admit it.

ian.
Author: David Morgan
Posted: Fri 7th Jan 2011, 13:22
Joined: 1994
Local Group: South Wales
I read the 2010 AGM minutes earlier today regarding the hundred following Tony's reference to it. It makes for interesting reading and broadly mirrors the debate on here. But, what was interesting, is that a motion to opt away from the ballot to a first come first served process was passed. The arguements presumably were that as over subscription had not been an issue since 1993, then there was no need to continue with the ballot. Perhaps, it's time to revert back, and have a motion proposed and passed at the next AGM to ensure that fairness and equality returns!!!
Author: Antony Blatchford
Posted: Fri 7th Jan 2011, 13:15
Joined: 2019
Local Group: Lakeland
Hi Ian,

Rather than procrastinating, some may not have got a place because they weren't aware that the entries were open due to the delays by the Post Office in delivering Strider.

Surely all LDWA members should have an equal chance of entering the 100? If this means having online and postal applications, followed by a ballot of those with the necessary qualifications if the event is over subscribed, then that must be a better solution than having members who didn't even get a chance to enter?
Author: David Kearns
Posted: Fri 7th Jan 2011, 12:42
Joined: 1998
I was actually thinking of staggered starts earlier than 10am,rather than later. This was permitted at Yoredale, presumably with a view to getting everybody over Ingleborough before dark - did it cause any complications ?
Author: Chris Pitt
Posted: Fri 7th Jan 2011, 12:24
Joined: 2004
Local Group: Dorset
I think Dave M has got it about right in an earlier post, which gives all members an equal chance of entry

“ ballot if more than 530 people apply before a particular cut off. The entries secretary will need to examine the entry requirements, and ensure that they have been met. If they have, the individual's details will be allowed to go forward, and then if more than 530 have applied, a ballot takes place on a date that is advertised. Unfortunately, those who do not get through the ballot will be disappointed members, but at least those who do not have access to computers will be treated as equally as those who provide their details with the online entry system.”

But I could see some merit in a forming a seeded reserve list of those who were unsuccessful in the ballot. This could be seeded on previous 100 completions recognising past achievements. Pre- ballot entries would be restricted to LDWA members.
Author: David Morgan
Posted: Fri 7th Jan 2011, 11:31
Joined: 1994
Local Group: South Wales
I like the idea of a staggered start, and Ian, I agree that people will want the 10am slot, but they will be allotted a time, and they would have to leave when instructed to do so!!! It's not an insurmountable problem.
Author: Ian Sykes
Posted: Fri 7th Jan 2011, 11:11
Joined: 1986
Local Group: East Yorkshire
PS.

I wrote my reply before I looked at the last 2 posts
Author: Ian Sykes
Posted: Fri 7th Jan 2011, 11:10
Joined: 1986
Local Group: East Yorkshire
First may I say: IMO no idea's can be called daft, maybe a better wording would have been, not properly thought out. You say it's the Daftest idea yet. So can I take it that any idea's posted on here that you don't agree with is daft?

Stagger starts on 100's

All well and good if it works but most will want to start at the 10am start to get as far as possible in daylight. Has we all know most of us slow down at night and than speed back up on Sunday.

It looks like some on here never got a place on the 100 because they did not apply quick enough. If it was because of work then yes I feel very sorry for them. If it was because they did not know if they wanted to do it or not (is that what procrastinating means in Yorkshire) well who's fault is that?

ian.
Author: David Morgan
Posted: Fri 7th Jan 2011, 10:56
Joined: 1994
Local Group: South Wales
In defence of Julie, this is not a daft idea, as it is a radical idea that others may never have considered. However, having said that, it is an idea that would need careful thought, and in order to avoid any allegations of nepotism, would need to be managed very effectively. And for that reason, it is doomed to fail.
Imagine if it did happen though?!! Groups would have an influx of members who wished to retain their 100 status, and then in due course we would be back to square one as everyone wold be helping, and over subscription would dominate the bothy forum again!!!!
Author: Julie Welch
Posted: Fri 7th Jan 2011, 10:46
Joined: 1996
Local Group: London
No wonder so few people post on this forum. What's daft about the idea compared to others that have been put forward? It works for other organisations. As for Ian's implication about cronyism, I think he's been spending too much time reading about politicians.
Author: David Kearns
Posted: Fri 7th Jan 2011, 9:41
Joined: 1998
Ian - generally I find I disagree with your view but this time you're spot-on. That was the daftest suggestion yet.

Reverting to my favoured option, relaxing the entry limit - would a staggered start make things more manageable ? (I recall CP2 on the Wessex 100 where I had to practically fight my way into the hall; 24 hours later at East Meon ,I had the place to myself)!
Author: Ian Sykes
Posted: Thu 6th Jan 2011, 22:35
Joined: 1986
Local Group: East Yorkshire
What would be classed as a small number, 10 maybe given to each of the group 43 groups that's 430 leaving 100 for the rest of us to fight over. Who would say who in the group gets them. Not all groups have the same number of members. A lot of 100 walkers do not belong to any local group. It will IMO be wide open for abuse and favouritism. Ok if your in the old boy's network or should I say old girl's network?

ian.
Author: Julie Welch
Posted: Thu 6th Jan 2011, 21:23
Joined: 1996
Local Group: London
Although it's fantastic that next year's 100 has attracted so many entries, I'm desperately disappointed that I haven't got a place. (My fault for procrastinating.) I can see a similar situation arising in 2012, because the London 100 is bound to get massive publicity and I'd far rather entry was decided by ballot, London Marathon style if necessary. One further thought (though I'm sure someone will subsequently post with a set of well-argued reasons why it can't or shouldn't be done) - what if groups are each allotted a small number of places to give out to worthy recipients, which is what London Marathon do for running clubs who supply helpers and marshals? These places are awarded on a points system to people who have stepped up to the plate for the club during the previous year, so it's a real inducement to get people helping.
Author: Antony Blatchford
Posted: Thu 6th Jan 2011, 12:51
Joined: 2019
Local Group: Lakeland
Just another idea for 100 entries - why not introduce a similar system to the London Marathon, where entries are spread over a number of weeks? So in the first week 125 places would be available to LDWA members, in the second week a further 125 places and so on - then if it is not fully subscribed after a month it could become an open to non members as well.

Entries could still be allocated on a first come, first served basis.

This would give those not aware that entries were open in the first week (I recieved my Strider on December 14th so only learned the entries were open then) a chance to enter on a later date.
Posted: Wed 5th Jan 2011, 20:02
Joined: 1982
Tony W. I am pleased I amused you but who has ever put up any conspiracy theories? If you read my postings you would notice that I advocated that those who wanted change should take it to the AGM which is the correct place to discuss these matters. I did enjoy your reply. It is exactly what I would have expected from you and I am sure it clarified the running of the 100 to a lot of people. It is only a shame that it has come so late in the debate.
Author: David Morgan
Posted: Wed 5th Jan 2011, 18:48
Joined: 1994
Local Group: South Wales
Hi Tony,

That is a very enlightening post, and at least it is clear that the thread is in tune with what people have suggested before. A further suggestion that may be palatable to many would be where the organisation recognises a 100 mile walk undertaken by an individual on their own, assuming that they can provide evidence of the route and a provide details of people who can corroborate that they did in fact complete the walk.
At the moment, my understanding is that only the official 100 counts towards any award.
This solo 100 would of course not count if the individual had managed to enter the main event or the marshalls' 100.
It is clear that there would be too much effort to organise a second 100, and I recognise that 1 volunteer is alwats better than 10 pressed individuals!!!
So, I wonder why this could not be considered?!!
Author: Tony Willey
Posted: Wed 5th Jan 2011, 17:26
Joined: 1989
Local Group: Lakeland
David H, whatever would we do without your amusing conspiracy theories? I think experienced hundred organisers and entrants are very interested in this subject. If you take a look at the draft minutes for last years AGM, which are accessible elsewhere on this website, you will see that a large part of the meeting was spent discussing the problem of oversubscribed Hundreds.

I suspect that one reason for lack of contribution to this thread is that very few of the points made are new. I browsed through some Striders from 1993/94, when this issue last came up. Suggestions made at the 1993 AGM included a second event, but it was thought that there were insuficient volunteers to make this possible. Other suggestions were banning runners (!), introducing tougher entry qualifications, upgrading the Marshals walk, requiring people to help after they had done 2 or 3 Hundreds before they could do another, giving preference to those who failed to get onto a previous Hundred and banning those who failed to turn up without notifying the organisers. Nothing new under the sun.

The 1994 AGM was the first I attended, and it caused me to wonder what sort of organisation I had joined. There was a passionate and occasionally acrimonious debate on whether there should be a straight ballot in the case of oversubscription, or whether priority should be given to various classes of entrant. The straight ballot was favoured by a large majority, and this has been LDWA policy ever since, This was confirmed at last year's AGM, although the Housman organisers have gone for a first come first served approach.

I have been an advocate of first come first served (in conjunction with online entry). This was on the assumption that the number of entrants would only increase gradually, but this year's leap in entries has caused me to think again. Is this year just a blip or will next year increase to the point where the entry is oversubscribed on the day entries open? In this case there may be no avoiding a ballot.

The alternative to restricting entry is to increase supply. Given the huge resources and planning required to put on a Hundred to the standard currently expected, I can't see where organisers for a second event in a year are going to come from. A stripped down event would still require a huge effort and would entrants want to sacrifice the atmosphere of the main event? Dividing the entry between two events might destroy the financial viability of both. Perhaps we could adopt Gordon Green's approach and use an existing “50”, turning round at the end and doing it again in reverse!

Encouraging more people to do the Marshals event is an option, but would only absorb a few more people. The thought of inexperienced walkers being let loose without much in the way of support is pretty worrying. It is not everyone's cup of tea – I did 80 miles of the Scottish Marshals event totally on my own.

I agree with Ian Sykes' views on the problems caused by relaxing the 500 rule but it may be the “least worst” solution if we attempt to increase supply rather than restrict demand.
Author: Jonathan Comber
Posted: Wed 5th Jan 2011, 15:40
Joined: 1988
I'm not sure you'll find out as I haven't entered this year and am now very unlikely to unless I get a feeling in the next month or so that the people on the waiting place are getting places and there is a chance of finding somewhere to stay within public transport reach of Ludlow. As somebody who has entered the last 5 100's and would probably have entered this year (work commitments permitting), I won't appear in any stats. The question is how many other people have taken a similar decision? I suspect you'll never know although the discussions at the AGM may give some idea.
This is one reason why I think a different entry policy than first come first served is better as it would at least give an idea of how many people want to enter rather than people seeing the event is full and then the national committee would have an idea if there is sufficient demand for more than 1 100 a year, assuming of course that there are people who would be willing to organise a second 100.
Author: Ian Sykes
Posted: Wed 5th Jan 2011, 15:01
Joined: 1986
Local Group: East Yorkshire
Wherever John or myself would be unable to get on a 100 is no longer a issue as the Exmoor was our last one we both entered. But what I will say is, John is not the kind of person to make a fuss about not getting on a walk, any walk. The last 6 or 7 hundreds we entered we did have a guaranteed place, like anybody on here could have.

It would be interesting to know just how many people have been turned away this year.

Ian.
Author: David Morgan
Posted: Wed 5th Jan 2011, 11:30
Joined: 1994
Local Group: South Wales
But that's the point isn't it Ian. The majority of us are very happy with the way things are run. We do what we want, when we want, and have no issues to take up. I wonder if your friend would think the same way when he is refused access to the 100 on perhaps one or even two occasions. That's when people will be unhappy, we will see more involved in a debate and more suggestions. This thread, in my opinion, is doing just that now. This year may just be a blip, but if it isn't, then there will be more disgruntled people. This thread is just exploring some solutions that might actually prevent people ever getting disgruntled in the first place!!!!
Author: Ian Sykes
Posted: Wed 5th Jan 2011, 10:35
Joined: 1986
Local Group: East Yorkshire
Went out last night with John Wood my 100 walking partner and we had a long talk about this thread. Has he see's it, maybe the reason so few people post on here is, that most are happy how things are run and are happy to leave it to the organisers to organise.


Something more to think about is, This thread as had over 2000 views but I would think less then 100 members have even bothered to look at it never mind post. Most of the hits will be the same people looking in daily.

ian
Posted: Wed 5th Jan 2011, 8:23
Joined: 1982
Geoff you didn’t upset me, I was issued with a thick skin the moment I took on my first union job. However you did raise a couple of points that may explain why people are reluctant to post on this and other forums. People do like to hear what is being said and do judge the person by their speech before making a reply. But I would put to you that there may also be more basic reasons why people are reluctant to post.
1) Any thing that you post on any forum pages can be recalled and used and may be twisted out of context.
2) Many (and I am repeating myself here) prefer to remain anonymous. And this posting may have been more robust if we had allowed people to remain anonymous.
I have heard all the arguments about these pages being a straight forward and honest interchange of ideas etc but the fact remains that many are not prepared to air their views in case they upset a long standing personal friend or ally. So the dust gets swept under the carpet.
Author: Matthew Hand
Posted: Tue 4th Jan 2011, 21:07
Joined: 2001
Local Group: Mid Wales
There has always been a lack of members posting on the forum, and on a subject such as this - which has produced some very thought provoking views - I find it odd there is not more input, other than the regular names.

Is this because the vast majority of membership don't have a view on the subject, don't like posting, or are simply apathetic on the whole subject, in the knowledge that if there is ever a problem, then somebody else will sort it. I would go for the latter.

Unless of course it effects them (such as unable to do a future 100) in which case they will moan like hell for months on end to all and sundry on every challenge walk!


I should point out I have only done 1x100 and helped on 1x100, and am not worried if I never do another (but would like the opportunity sometime if the fancy takes me). So I am posting because I'm interested in a potential problem, I have no particular drum to beat. Matt.
Author: Geoff Saunders
Posted: Tue 4th Jan 2011, 20:55
Joined: 1972
Local Group: Merseystride
David. I'm sorry if I upset you but I didn't read your posting as either a personal attack or a snide remark. What I was trying to do was to point out that, though the overall involvement rate of members might be small, the contributions from Committee and 100 Organisers on a pro rata basis are much higher. (ButAll then, as Ian has pointed out, I screwed up with a ridiculous typo - ultra embarrassing!).

Actually this highlights why so many of us are reluctant to join in text-speak - it's impossible to judge tone-of-voice and to pick up innuendos.
Posted: Tue 4th Jan 2011, 20:06
Joined: 1982
Geoff all I did was count up how many had answered this post and remarked on how few of our members have become involved in it and made the observation that it seemed strange that so few of the experienced organisers and those that have taken part in the 100 over many years had joined in on the post. In all of my posts on this subject I have been extremely careful not to make personal attacks or snide remarks. (Though I may had an occasional dig at the LDWA establishment have in the past) It does seem strange to me that so few of our members participate in on line discussions but at the same time so many lurk in the background. Maybe this should be discussed at National level if it has not all ready been done.
Author: Ian Sykes
Posted: Tue 4th Jan 2011, 17:39
Joined: 1986
Local Group: East Yorkshire
Now I'm not the sharpest knife in the draw but 23 of 7000 is 0.0032857 unless of course I blunter then I think.

ian.
Author: Geoff Saunders
Posted: Tue 4th Jan 2011, 17:36
Joined: 1972
Local Group: Merseystride
My previous post was in answer to David Hammond, not David Morgan. I should have checked before I pressed the button. (Does this posting add one to my postings total?)
Author: Geoff Saunders
Posted: Tue 4th Jan 2011, 17:29
Joined: 1972
Local Group: Merseystride
David. I'm impressed by your tenacity in producing these statistics but, once again, I'm afraid I have to take issue with you. Overall, 23 out of a total of about 7000 members represents a contributory rate of 3.3%. By my reckoning, there are 61 past and present Committee members among those 7000 and 7 of them have posted here - that comes to 11.5%. And the contribution rate from past organisers is even higher - 3/19 making 15.8%.

Actually, I don't think these figures (your version or mine) are in the least significant. I am just quoting them to show that you can do anything with statistics

On a more relevant note, there have been cases in the past of people doing the Marshals' Walk and then using an obviously transparent excuse to renege on a promise to help on the main event. And, in any case, will conscripted marshals be as willing or as productive as enthusiastic volunteers? I doubt it.
Author: David Morgan
Posted: Tue 4th Jan 2011, 17:23
Joined: 1994
Local Group: South Wales
A couple of points to pick up on here.

1. The use of the forum does not reflect the views of the membership, as we have accepted I think, that this forum, and thread is unread by the vast majority. They're probably too busy going for a walk!

2. I don't think that the tone of the posts to date demonstrate a few hundrediers becoming anxious, rather, I think that it shows that there are a few of us who care about the main event, and that we care about accessibility for all to achieve a hundred should they choose to enter that year.

3. Ian, I think you've missed my point regarding the marshalls' walk. Perhaps I should have been more explicit. For that I apologise. My suggestion was that the marshalls' hundred becomes the second hundred, and that it is given similiar support as the main event. Thus, it would not be a marshalls' walk as we currently have with few checkpoints and minimal support. It would be an event that would be seen as a realistic alternative to the main event.

4. Finally, yes I accept that at the moment there is no desire to force people to actually have to help. However, if an event became so popular every year that it did become over subscribed, then this could be a realistic and perhaps radical idea that would take the pressure off the main event. I was trying to think outside the box!!!
Author: Ian Sykes
Posted: Tue 4th Jan 2011, 16:39
Joined: 1986
Local Group: East Yorkshire
Maybe a classic case of the tail wagging the dog.

ian.
Author: W. Paul Tremere
Posted: Tue 4th Jan 2011, 16:06
Joined: 1989
Local Group: East Yorkshire
David’s statistics (4th Jan at 15:28) are very illuminating.

Expressed as a percentage of the overall membership, they reveal the real interest in this topic.
Are the silent majority really interested? Is this just a storm in a tea cup generated by a very, (very, very) few, unnecessarily anxious “hundrediers” ?

A generous estimate would be that 1,000 members are involved in the annual hundred. I believe that this is around 14% of the total membership. What if a mischievous member galvanised the silent majority into proposing that hundreds should be abandoned, on the grounds that too many of the Association’s resources are focused on so few members?
Posted: Tue 4th Jan 2011, 15:28
Joined: 1982
It’s pouring down with rain, the gym is closed for re-furbishing and my OU eTMA is finished and just waiting to be sent off. So I had a look down the list of contributors to this posting. There are 23 individuals Two have posted ten or more times Two have posted five or more replys and the rest between one and four. I am pretty sure that all have taken part in a 100 or helped out on the 100 but why have only 23 bothered to express an opinion on what is after all a fairly serious subject.? You would have thought that by now some of the experienced organisers and long term 100’s entrants would have given an opinion on some of the ideas that have been put forward or is that their silence is their answer to this debate.?
Author: Ian Sykes
Posted: Mon 3rd Jan 2011, 23:18
Joined: 1986
Local Group: East Yorkshire
I think you should do the Marshal's walk because you want to help / give something back and not to be forced into it. Make no mistakes the marshal's walk is not a easy option. You could be walking on your own for most of the route. At night you may not have any lights to follow so your map reading as to be spot on. most of the time you might only see other walkers at checkpoints. It will not suit everybody. After all if it was easy you would all be doing it and saving money wouldn't you.

ian.
Author: David Morgan
Posted: Mon 3rd Jan 2011, 22:40
Joined: 1994
Local Group: South Wales
Actually I've thought of another way of getting this to work, and Matt has already touched on this earlier in the thread, and it will mean compulsory helping.

IE. From now on, those embarking on a ten badge HAVE to assist on at least two main events, and so two have to be completed on the marshall walk.

Double that for a twenty badge.

I'm the first to admit that I haven't assisted to date on the main event. But, as some in the South Wales group will testify to, I am keen to involve our group on the main 2012 event, and perhaps beyond. I'm on the committee of the 2014 Valleys 100, so can certainly claim that one in due course.

It's just a case of changing how the entrants think. If everyone knows they have to complete two prior to getting a ten badge, they if they really want it, they'll do it.

Perhaps the organisation would need to be quite explicit, and tell any entrant who is due to enter their 5th and 6th 100, that they can only do so as a marshall.

What do you think?
Posted: Mon 3rd Jan 2011, 22:24
Joined: 1982
Eileen G could the "S" be for "Schtum" which is something neither of us has ever been.
David G. Put your ideas as proposals and let the AGM debate them.
Author: David Morgan
Posted: Mon 3rd Jan 2011, 21:32
Joined: 1994
Local Group: South Wales
Then, I think we can summarise this thread!!!

There appears to be no real enthusiasm to create a second 100 walk due to the logistical difficulties for the organsiation, and because it will take the shine off the flagship event.

The event cannot be allowed to go past 530 entrants due to a host of reasons, the main one being the logistical difficulties of catering for potentially 200 - 300 extra people.

So, my submission is this - We already have a second 100 in the form of the marshalls walk, and so we actively encourage those who can get both weekends off, to enter and walk the marshalls' 100, and then help on the main event. The marshalls' event will have to be altered so that it can cope with the additional numbers, but at least it should be able to absorb the 100 or so extra people that perhaps would potentially opt out.
Author: Eileen Greenwood
Posted: Mon 3rd Jan 2011, 21:07
Joined: 2002
Local Group: Yorkshire Coast
or indeed with regard to the 100 event- the S in the tiltle of LDWA (S) could be "somnambulist" .
Author: Ian Sykes
Posted: Mon 3rd Jan 2011, 20:34
Joined: 1986
Local Group: East Yorkshire
To Paul Tremere

I thought you where to busy trying to beat the cut off times on the hundreds to have time to visit any pubs.

ian.
Author: W. Paul Tremere
Posted: Mon 3rd Jan 2011, 20:05
Joined: 1989
Local Group: East Yorkshire
John King (30th December at 19:41) suggests establishing a branch of our Association with an “S” (for speed) in the title. Should this be a thread in its own right (or even write)?

I believe that this is ill advised and would inevitably lead to confusion.

Some poor misguided souls may, contrary to John’s intention, interpret the “S” as slow. These unfortunates would walk at a much gentler pace, occasionally stopping to admire the view or even take photographs in their attempt to enjoy the countryside.

Worse still others may well mistake the “S” for social. These deluded degenerates would converse loudly with their companions and may even begin conversations with complete strangers. Heaven forbid that they frequent the pubs en route and linger at checkpoints.

Attempting to accommodate such diverse groups within one organisation is obviously a recipe for disaster and must be discouraged.

Don’t worry it will never catch on!
Author: Matthew Hand
Posted: Mon 3rd Jan 2011, 18:21
Joined: 2001
Local Group: Mid Wales
I wonder if we shall ever know how many people want places on the Marches 100, but have been refused or would possibly enter in the next 4 months if they thought there were still places available?

And by the way ....... this is now the longest ever thread onThe Bothy!!!

Matt.
Author: Ian Sykes
Posted: Mon 3rd Jan 2011, 12:16
Joined: 1986
Local Group: East Yorkshire
IMO there has to be a limit on the 100 and I do think that the 500 one is about right. If there was no limit it would be unmanageable to deal with. What size halls do you book. The outside checkpoints are already overflowing at times. It could end up with 600, 700, or even 800 doing the walk in the future. What about the car parking to start with, the start and finish hall/s ect. All the extra work with the food ect. Plus the breakfast checkpoint in most cases will be overwhelmed by all the extra walkers. Is all right for you to say make it unlimited but it's the same old faces turning up year after year doing all the mundane jobs so the walk runs smoothly.

Next time your at breakfast spot take a minute and took around you and see what the checkpoint staff are doing. Giving out bags, tending to your feet, making and serving you your meal and then at the end clearing your mess up so there can hand back the hall in a clean state. And that is just one of 16 or so checkpoints.

As for putting to a vote of the members, only about 10% of the membership are involved in the 100. So if it is put to a vote 90% will be ask to vote on something their not involved with.

ian
Author: Matthew Hand
Posted: Mon 3rd Jan 2011, 10:26
Joined: 2001
Local Group: Mid Wales
My mention of a second 100, was very much an 'off the top of my head' suggestion, but something to think about if an increase in entry numbers of the 100 was not considered viable.

Could simply increase the numbers for the Marshalls walk. I mentioned a time limit (arbitrary 36hr figure) in order to get the event finished slightly quicker and try to take out the very fast walkers & joggers from the main event. This would also have a knock-on effect for the main 100, if checkpoints all worked on a 34 - 48 hour pace opening and closing time (another arbitrary figure); this could cut down on the length of time latter CP's have to be manned.

It looks like whatever happens, it is bound to be unfair to some!! Matt.
Author: David Kearns
Posted: Mon 3rd Jan 2011, 9:53
Joined: 1998
A second,or "Joggers" Hundred is all very well, if you can find somebody to organize one, but will participants then be precluded from entering the Official Hundred? Conversely, would entry be restricted to those who had not done the Official Hundred? And if so ... well, make up the rest for yourselves. It's creating another minefield.

No. I return to my original point,which is that the simplest, and only fair, answer is to raise or dispense altogether with the entry limit.
Perhaps there should be a referendum on the subject ?
Author: Eileen Greenwood
Posted: Sun 2nd Jan 2011, 22:24
Joined: 2002
Local Group: Yorkshire Coast
To John Dally of post 29th December. Ok John- I accept your challenge for the Fellsman! I will give you a good bottle of single malt if I finish. If I don't and my feet knackered up before the 100 mile event then I will be pouring that single malt whisky over my poor feet! If I get an entry of course and it isn't over subscribed!
Author: David Morgan
Posted: Sun 2nd Jan 2011, 13:30
Joined: 1994
Local Group: South Wales
The main issue that I see with having a second hundred, is that only the people who were unable to get in on the main event will want to enter. Few, if any of the entrants on the main event will bother to enter and so the event would be very low key. This will be attractive to many of course.
The other main issue is that one would imagine that the LDWA will not want a second hundred to undermine the flagship event, and so it will have to be different from the main event in order to differentiate it.
I quite like the idea of a low key event but whilst I have finally broken the 36 hour barrier, would not always be able to achieve that, and so would like to see more time set aside.
One would also like to see the event recognised as part of any total towards an award, such as the 10 or 20 badge, with the caveat that only one hundred could be claimed by an individual in any one calendar year.
Author: Jonathan Comber
Posted: Sun 2nd Jan 2011, 10:27
Joined: 1988
I agree with previous comments that if we introduce a ballot system there should be an equal chance for everybody to enter possibly with the exception of the guy who's done every 100 who can enter automatically.
Matt's idea of a basic 100 for the second hundred makes sense particularly if we used a previous 100 route as this should reduce the time required to organise it. However a 36 hour time limit would probably not work. Every 100 until the Scottish one, I'd completed in under 36 hours but I had to retire from this purely on time grounds as I'd booked the overnight sleeper south on Sunday night assuming I'd finish in my usual 34 hours. However the sections either side of the breakfast stop took a lot longer than I anticipated and this meant I wouldn't make my train.
In terms of runners/walkers if you look at finish times, most people will probably think I run events under 50 miles but I can consistently walk at 4mph until it gets dark on the first night, so this needs to be thought about if any restrictions are introduced.
Author: Ian Sykes
Posted: Sat 1st Jan 2011, 15:54
Joined: 1986
Local Group: East Yorkshire
But how many of the 7000 are active challenge walkers and how many have any desire to do a 100? Up to know, not that many.

ian
Posted: Sat 1st Jan 2011, 15:07
Joined: 1982
In answer to David K’s point. The people who decide how the 100 is run is the National Committee who in turn are answerable to the membership at the National AGM. If any one has a serious beef and can get enough support they should take it to the AGM or get one of their group reps to take it up. I know this is not an easy way to get things changed but it is the only democratic way. I don’t know why but the walker / runner debate will never go away. Personally I still think it was a mistake not to incorporate the Trail Runners in to the LDWA but that is another issue.
Author: Matthew Hand
Posted: Sat 1st Jan 2011, 14:30
Joined: 2001
Local Group: Mid Wales
Exactly David, the runners/walkers issue is no longer an issue - as everybody seems to get along fine.

The point is, if the 100 becomes more popular and as a result ldwa membership increases, (presuming ldwa membership is essential for 100 entry), what will happen if they find the entry is a lottery? Is this fair on the older members for whom the 100 is the highlight of their calendar, and is it fair to new members who have joined to have a crack at the 100 and then find they cannot.

Obviously if everything stays the same as before, then this is just a minor blip, but if ldwa suddenly find membership has risen to 9000 and 1000 want to enter the 100 each year (and the 50s), there will be some seriously disgruntled members out there.

So does the ldwa want to grow, and if so this is possibly an opportunity, or does it want to stay as it is and restrict membership to 7000ish?
Matt.
Author: David Morgan
Posted: Sat 1st Jan 2011, 11:04
Joined: 1994
Local Group: South Wales
That was my point earlier in the thread. There will be inequality within the organisation, and who is to say that someone going for their 20th 100 is more important than someone going for their first.
This thread is raising some interesting issues, and if as suspected, we are in for a few years of oversubscribed 100's, then perhaps the national committee will either reaffirm our current policy, or take the opportunity to look at alternative solutions. There are few alternatives I fear though!!
Author: David Kearns
Posted: Sat 1st Jan 2011, 9:53
Joined: 1998
Who, exactly, is going to decide which groups have priority? And, following on from that, which groups, despite being fully paid-up members, don't ?
Author: Rebecca Lawrence
Posted: Fri 31st Dec 2010, 13:54
Joined: 2003
Local Group: Marches
Interesting that the old runners vs walkers has come into it again. Am I correct that there may be a little bit of resentment that places in this years 100 have been issued to those who dare to put one foot in front of the other quicker that the 'average walking speed?'

Seriously though - maybe age is a factor. I joined the LDWA as a pure walker - so why did I start running? Answer is, call me antisocial, but walking for me is a chance to lose myself and destress - for this reason I like to get ahead of the group as I don't walking nose to tail in a line, which can be the case for miles unless the start is staggered, but the biggest factor is time, or lack of it, predominantly as I work full time and everything has to be crammed into a weekend.

For 25 milers - if I run I finish in about 5-6 hours, so finish by 2pm if its an 8am start. This means I then have a bit of time in the afternoon to do jobs / shopping / see to my horses etc, so the impact the walk has on my day is less. For the bigger distances - if I walk a 50, it will take me well into the early hours of Sunday morning, and significantly reduced hours of available sleep on Sat night, and create a jet lag effect for the following night too. If I run it, or run a significant portion of it, i can be done by 9pm on the Saturday evening. Having then have a proper nights sleep on Sat night I am then in far more a fit state to go to work on Monday morning. Those who are retired do not have this problem.

I agree with the ballot system for subsequent years, with a priority for certain groups - age / 10 / 20 badge and also if you did not get in the previous year.
Author: David Morgan
Posted: Fri 31st Dec 2010, 9:25
Joined: 1994
Local Group: South Wales
The difficulty for some of course, is that they work weekends, including bank holiday weekends, and guaranteeing leave for the main event can be problematic, let alone both weekends if one decides to be a marshall.
Author: Ian Sykes
Posted: Thu 30th Dec 2010, 23:01
Joined: 1986
Local Group: East Yorkshire
On the marshal's 100's I entered 7 I do believe we had from 35 to 50 I think. You can always close the marshal's 100 before the "proper" 100 opens After all the helpers know there are going to help out well up front. Some know years in advance.

ian.
Author: David Morgan
Posted: Thu 30th Dec 2010, 22:51
Joined: 1994
Local Group: South Wales
And I have already suggested that!!!

But that is not going to solve the issue of oversubscription. If everyone pursued that entry policy, then the marshalls walk could become inundated, and unable to cope with the numbers. At the moment, from commencing our organisation of the Valleys 100 in 2014, we understand that the marshalls walk would normally expect to cater for 30 people. Imagine, if as a result of the main event becoming a lottery, that 100+ people all decided to help and then walk the marshalls 100. With regards to the main event, it would be logistical heaven for the organisers, but a logistical nightmare for the organiser of the marshall's walk!!
Author: Ian Sykes
Posted: Thu 30th Dec 2010, 22:40
Joined: 1986
Local Group: East Yorkshire
Simply answer to that one is, help out on the event them you get to do the walk 3 or 4 weeks before everybody else and at half the price. Who knows yo might enjoy doing a more lied back 100. Also you'll be giving something back to the association that we all love.

ian
Author: David Morgan
Posted: Thu 30th Dec 2010, 22:30
Joined: 1994
Local Group: South Wales
Ian,

I honestly believe that runners and walkers in this organisation of ours do get along. In fact, I see mutual respect on almost every event that I have ever entered. I just don't understand why there has to be any issue at all. A runner is someone who can get from A to B on foot in a faster way than a walker. Many of our members are runners who have decided to jog or even walk because they don't feel the inclination to run anymore.
The debate is (IMO) a nonsense.

The issue in question though, is how can our great organisation cater to the needs of all who wish to participate in the advertised flag ship event. At the moment, it would appear that we are unable to deliver to all interested parties, and this has to be of concern to all of us who could potentially be affected.
Author: Ian Sykes
Posted: Thu 30th Dec 2010, 22:21
Joined: 1986
Local Group: East Yorkshire
However you dress it up you are saying that the LDWA (the walking club I've walked with for many years) should be split into two. One for slow walkers and one for fast walkers and runners. This debate (runners v walkers) as been going on within the LDWA for as long as I can remember. Surely we can all get along with each other.

The debate about the 100's all stems from the Cleveland Hundred. Would I be right in saying the only true over prescribe 100 we have had up to date. At the time most of us know the Cleveland 100 would be popular so yes most of us entered within the first 2 weeks. Has I see it challenge walks can and do in the most cater for all. After all that's the idea isn't it.

ian
Author: David Morgan
Posted: Thu 30th Dec 2010, 22:10
Joined: 1994
Local Group: South Wales
Nor does one want to rule out those members who are going for some greater achievement. Such as their 20th x 100, or their first 100 over 80 years old etc.etc. simply because when they posted their entry in the morning, and the places had been filled overnight by online entries. Or that they may miss out with a ballott system.

If we were to have rules with regards to 'special entries' such as a 20th 100, or a first 100 for someone who is aged over 80 years, then there will inevitably be people who wish to claim that they are special in some way that will enable them to have an entry. I simply believe that the playing field should be level and that all should have an equal opportunity to participate.

Clearly, there will need to be a ballot if more than 530 people apply before a particular cut off. The entries secretary will need to examine the entry requirements, and ensure that they have been met. If they have, the individual's details will be allowed to go forward, and then if more than 530 have applied, a ballot takes place on a date that is advertised. Unfortunately, those who do not get through the ballot will be disappointed members, but at least those who do not have access to computers will be treated as equally as those who provide their details with the online entry system.

Sub groups within any organisation are divisive, and in years gone by, the debate between runners and walkers has been quite intense. If someone wants to get from A to B faster than someone else, good luck to them I say. Their money is as good as mine at the end of the day because we are all members of the same organisation.
Posted: Thu 30th Dec 2010, 21:58
Joined: 1982
John welcome to the Honorable Association of Burberlers. or as it is other wise known the the Hans and List.
Author: John King
Posted: Thu 30th Dec 2010, 21:00
Joined: 2002
The figures i gave were purely numbers used as examples, there are those far more clever than I, that could suggest where walking speeds can be classed as speed walking, plus I made no suggestion of a New club, (the LDWA is not a club it is an association of like minded i.e. self perambulation, folk as I understand it).
What I suggested was an allied branch of the LDWA, consisting of members with a desire to cover ground at a pace greater than the average walking pace which hopefully would evolve to work with and in in tandem with the mother arm of the association and to the mutual benefit of all members.
Over time this should enable a crossover of man/womanpower, when it was needed for events an example I gave earlier was opening c/p earlier for quicker members of the LDWA.
As I said just a thought
Author: Ian Sykes
Posted: Thu 30th Dec 2010, 20:28
Joined: 1986
Local Group: East Yorkshire
In English 5k = 3.125 miles 6k = 3.75 miles 6.5k = 4,06 miles. So if the idea to is get everybody who walks/jogs/runs challenge walks at over 3.125 miles per hour to start a new club LDSWA, who's going to be left in the LDWA.

ian.
Author: John King
Posted: Thu 30th Dec 2010, 19:41
Joined: 2002
Why not consider creating a Offshoot branch of the LDWA for the fast (say 5.6 or 6.5 Kph) walkers /Runners
maybe calling it LDSWA (S standing for speed) and then as the section grows it would provide more volunteers at checkpoints etc, and maybe ultimately able to conduct look after there own interests by manning checkpoints earlier for example even possibly organising an additional 100 .
I have heard all the remarks regarding the LDWA being an association of walkers and so it should remain, but maybe a sub division of speed walkers would be good for the LDWA as a whole.
Just a thought
See you in Ludlow
Author: Matthew Hand
Posted: Wed 29th Dec 2010, 17:54
Joined: 2001
Local Group: Mid Wales
Nor does one want to rule out those members who are going for some greater achievement. Such as their 20th x 100, or their first 100 over 80 years old etc.etc. simply because when they posted their entry in the morning, and the places had been filled overnight by online entries. Or that they may miss out with a ballott system.

Lots to look at, and I'm sure there will be many more opinions and suggestions to come. There do seem to be plenty of possible problems on the horizon if popularity continues to grow.

How about another annual 100, run on a much more 'basic' level. Say only 8 checkpoints, 1 breakfast stop and 36 hr limit for the quick walkers/joggers? Matt.
Author: Rebecca Lawrence
Posted: Wed 29th Dec 2010, 12:46
Joined: 2003
Local Group: Marches
I am lucky enough to have got a place in the Housman 100, as I tend to plan and enter early where possible but I agree with Jon in that maybe having a ballot 1 month after entries have opened would be a fair way of deciding entrants if maximum numbers have been reached. I am against increasing the number beyond 500 due to logistical reasons and like Jon - I sometimes hate to walk in a noisy group, and it would take even longer for the field to spread out if there were more entrants. My concern is that if it remains on a first come first served basis, it will become a bit of a bun fight every year, with people potentially entering 1 minute past midnight on the day the entries open, and also if it is online and postal entry, potentially disadvantaging those who have only access to snail mail. Next year for example is likely to be really popular and I suspect will be a repeat of this year, only worse as people will want to enter even earlier to ensure a place. One disadvantage of the ballot system would be that if you planned to walk with someone or a group, you may find that some of the group get places and some dont. I seem to remember - was it the Exmoor 100 that had the ballot system and you specified on the form whether or not you still want a place if others on your group don't get one which was a good idea?
Author: John Dally
Posted: Wed 29th Dec 2010, 10:47
Joined: 1990
Local Group: East Yorkshire
As someone with quite extensive experience of both 100's and The Fellsman, I do not feel I can allow Eileen Greenwood's dismissal of The Fellsman as a second rater to go without comment. I know Eileen very well and walked the Northumbria 100 with her and know she is a strong walker. I have urged her many times to line up at Ingleton and it is with this in mind that I issue the following challenge to her. If she partakes in the Fellsman and reaches Cray, I will contribute £50 to a charity of her choice. If she completes it, I will make that a £100. As the song goes 'Come on Eileen'. I know you can do it - even if you yourself are not sure.
Author: Jonathan Comber
Posted: Sun 26th Dec 2010, 15:52
Joined: 1988
As somebody who missed out on this year's 100 partly because I don't think about next year's events until I receive the December Strider, I think some consideration needs to be given as to whether a first come first serve policy is the best one. I would feel setting a deadline up to which all entries are treated with equal status with a ballot if necessary is better. This year I know some of my post has been delayed by a week or so presumably because of the bad weather and this may have impacted on some entries.

In terms of the 500 limit, I know I don't enjoy the first few hours of a 100 because I like to walk on my own rather than in a crowd so if the number increased this could deter me. The 100 I've enjoyed the most was Yoredale because of the flexible start times.

I recall when I was a member for the first time in the late 80's or early 90's, there were 2 100's in one year with the second one (the Cheshire Ring) being given unofficial status. I don't know what impact this had on the main 100 in terms of getting enough helpers.

Finally some events I would have entered as training events for the 100, I may not now enter, so this may need to be thought about as well.
Posted: Fri 24th Dec 2010, 23:05
Joined: 1982
Yes Ian count me as one
David H (and sober)
Author: Ian Sykes
Posted: Fri 24th Dec 2010, 22:47
Joined: 1986
Local Group: East Yorkshire
Re volunteering, it just so happens the baggage team will be one member short at the HQ on the next 100. So if anybody as 51 hours spare over the weekend 7am Saturday until 10am Monday you can always join us. I can't promise you much sleep but you will get plenty of exercise lifting and sorting out a few hundred bags quite a few time. And don't forget that you have to pay all your own expenses for the full weekend.

Any takers. Maybe not.

Ian Sykes.
Author: Tony Willey
Posted: Thu 23rd Dec 2010, 13:01
Joined: 1989
Local Group: Lakeland
I don't ever recall there being any move to restrict LDWA membership to a certain number, but there was certainly concern as to whether the LDWA could cope with increased numbers on a voluntary basis. When I took over as Treasurer in 1993, I continued the strategy of my predecessor, Peter Dyson, to build up reserves to help meet the costs of paid staff. That this has never been needed is a testament to improved technology and the dedication of a small number of people.

My understanding is that membership is currently over 7000, back to around the highest ever, a remarkable increase of around 10% in the year. No doubt this is due to the publicity received from the Handbook and Julie Welch's book, the impact of the LDP section of the LDWA website, and the low subscription cost. Unfortunately recent history suggests that many of the members recruited in this way will be short term members. In the last few years less than one in three new recruits have become long term members. This is somewhat different to the position 20 years ago, when most new members were recruited at events or other "hands on" means, and a much higher proportion stayed as long term members.

In my view the biggest challenge for the LDWA is to maintain the flow of people prepared to give their time and energy to help run the association voluntarily. For that we need a flow of new members, a small proportion of whom will become those new volunteers.
Posted: Thu 23rd Dec 2010, 11:19
Joined: 1982
At the moment I am stuck waiting for a phone call hence this reply . Geoff I will give way to your superior knowledge of the LDWA and your many years of exemplary service and I just hope I am as fit as you in few years time. But I do remember a debate centred round whether a voluntary organization like ours could cope with a large volume of members with out fetching in full time paid staff. As to whether it was vigorous or whether it was contained within groups of members or was heated or not or numbers were mentioned is open to debate at this late date. But some members of the LDWA have been known to state their case very openly and others did not like what was said. I will stick to my other points.
Author: Geoff Saunders
Posted: Thu 23rd Dec 2010, 10:38
Joined: 1972
Local Group: Merseystride
David (Hammond) - can you elaborate on the "vigorous debate" regarding a membership cap of 5000? The LDWA membership first exceeded 5000 in 1989 and has never fallen below that figure since. It reached a peak of over 7000 in 1997. Around that time (1989) and earlier there was indeed much discussion of the effects of membership growth and the possible eventual need to employ paid staff. But they were in the context of a need to build up a financial buffer to enable us to cope with the day when volunteers alone could not cope. There was no thought then of ever capping the membership. Further, in those days, we had no idea of at what level employed help would be needed. To my knowledge 5000 was never mentioned.

Regarding your other points, (2) might well be true and (3) is certainly true with the added consideration of the impact on other walkers using the same paths. It was felt that a limit on numbers should be imposed but, beyond that, the figure of 500 was somewhat arbitrary.

I will forbear from commenting on your fourth point.
Author: David Morgan
Posted: Thu 23rd Dec 2010, 10:14
Joined: 1994
Local Group: South Wales
Interesting points David, and seeing how you have been with the LDWA for so many years, you have raised many points that some of us would not have been aware of.

It would be interesting to know whether the committee currently forms the same view that was held regarding a cut off figure of 5000 being manageable as a voluntary organisation. With the advent of computerisation, direct debits and email, I suspect that the figure is now irrelevant.

The forums are not actively used. In fact, this is the first thread that has caught my attention and made me want to contribute. I think I recall seeing a similiar length thread once and opened it up to discover it was about a decompsing banana!!! It didn't inspire me I'm afraid. BUT, I do know that several people read the forum but don't necessarily wish to participate, so we can be sure that this is being viewed. I see that Mike Childs has raised further awareness of it in the events forum, which does seem to be the main place that people lurk.

I'm still not convinced on the 500 limit. Perhaps a publication of the arguements for and against could be published and the scientific evidence produced that shows that ecological damage takes place. As for upsetting residents, it is my experience that on any long walk, bunching and people walking past in mass groups only takes place in the first 20 miles. After that, the field spreads out very nicely.

Playing devils advocate to your observation regarding the trail runners, many in this organisation may argue that we are the Long Distance Walkers Association, and so in order to solve the potential over subscription of the 100, only walkers would be allowed to participate, and this would be enforced with 4mph cp opening times!!!!!!!!
Posted: Thu 23rd Dec 2010, 8:29
Joined: 1982
I had not intended to get involved in this debate as I am taking a Sabbatical from all walking activities at the moment. But I think some important points are being missed.
1) There was a vigorous debate as to whether the LDWA should cap it’s membership at five thousand as it was thought that this the limit that could be managed as a volunteer organization and that above this it would need full time professionals to run.
2) I doubt if we have ever seen two hundred individuals contribute to these pages. Most of the time it is down to the ten or twelve “usual suspects”.
3) The 100 was limited to five hundred for some very good reasons. Not least because of the impact on some of the areas we use and in consideration of the local residents.
4) Maybe I am being a little mischievous here but some of our members would have liked us to form a coalition with the Trail Runners which would have maybe been in both our interests but this idea has been strenuously fought against by some senior and very active members.
Author: David Morgan
Posted: Wed 22nd Dec 2010, 22:48
Joined: 1994
Local Group: South Wales
I think Matt, that you have identified the problem that we as an organisation may have to solve. For, if as suspected, membership does indeed grow, then those opportunities that we currently take for granted, will slowly be eroded. So, as you mentioned in an earlier post, this is where the LDWA must grasp the issue and see it as an opportunity, and perhaps change how things are done in what will be seen by many as radical.

I have always questioned the arbitary figure of 500. I read with interest John's comment re food and baggage, but if the 100 could be increased numerically, then additional helpers will need to be found to address the extra work required, and so once again we come again to volunteers. But, I see this as the way forward, assuming that there is not an ecological arguement that has also settled on the 500 limit!

The volunteers are out there. They just need to be identified!!
Author: Matthew Hand
Posted: Wed 22nd Dec 2010, 19:32
Joined: 2001
Local Group: Mid Wales
Pity there aren't another 200 members joining in this forum with ideas and views, never mind.

If we are pretty much at saturation point with entry to the 100 and available 50s, with the current membership of 7000, does this mean that's maximum for ldwa membership, as there is no way we could offer members equal opportunities for the longer events if the membership increased to say 10,000?

More food for thought. Don't ask me for answers, I just think all these ideas and views need thinking about if the organisation changes (gets bigger).
Matt.
Author: John Phillips
Posted: Wed 22nd Dec 2010, 7:44
Joined: 2007
Local Group: East Yorkshire
Whilst I like the idea of a requirement to assist on an event, it is easier said than done in a number of instances. I have offered my services on a few occasions and been told that I was not needed (I don't think it was personal). I persevered and my services were welcomed elsewhere but will other people have the option?
Is manning a checkpoint for 3 hours once a year more valuable to the LDWA than taking an active role within a group either in an administrative or walk leading capacity? I think not.
I agree we need to differentiate between those who help and those who don't, but it is important we correctly identify them
Author: Eileen Greenwood
Posted: Wed 22nd Dec 2010, 0:10
Joined: 2002
Local Group: Yorkshire Coast
We are already "elite". In terms of distance,endurance.Winter months especially. Events especially. And cheapness of Event costs.

Time to get ahead.

And no, that does not mean are we too cheap.
Author: Eileen Greenwood
Posted: Tue 21st Dec 2010, 23:31
Joined: 2002
Local Group: Yorkshire Coast
I volunteer. Whatever , wherever. I hope others do so too. Except for the actual 100 event. not free then until someting like knees or legs or something else takes over. And when working duties permit my weekends are free. Tea duty. Sweeping the floor whatever.

Maybe get a members volunteer list?

But it is the parking the problem in future. And space in village halls- toilet facilites etc. For all events. As John mentioned.
Author: David Morgan
Posted: Tue 21st Dec 2010, 22:41
Joined: 1994
Local Group: South Wales
Hi Matt,

That's a very fair point that you've made regarding qualification, and I agree that there are issues with regards to the number of longer events.
But I would add that if you've completed a 100 in the previous calendar year, then you are already qualified for next year's 100, so that automatically takes the pressure off if you don't want to do a 50 miler.
In addition, if you can produce evidence that you are capable of walking such a gruelling event, without actually having completed a 50 miler, then you will be allowed in.
This happened to me for the Wessex 100. I took a year out from the 100 the year before, but because I had completed 8 x 100's at the time, this was seen as suitable evidence that I was a qualified enough person to enter the 100 that year.
So, whilst more 50 mile events are an attractive proposition, and will be seen by many as qualifying events, it still doesn't solve the problem of the numbers game at the main event. In fact, due to the fact that many return year after year, we are in danger of having an 'elite' percentage already qualified at the expense of newbies who wish to 'have a go'!!

I wholeheartedly agree with you regarding volunteering in some way by the way!!!!!!!!

Dave
Author: John Phillips
Posted: Tue 21st Dec 2010, 22:37
Joined: 2007
Local Group: East Yorkshire
At some stage I can see that we will be overwhelmed with helpers on the main 100 as a large number will wish to do the marshals' walk, not having got an entry into main event. Will there be any space in the village halls to get any walkers in?
Author: Matthew Hand
Posted: Tue 21st Dec 2010, 22:21
Joined: 2001
Local Group: Mid Wales
Let me put this another way.

Maybe 600 members have ideas on the 100 and want a qualifier.

How may 50 mile events are there, and how many potentil places for those events?

Take out 600 places (from those 50 milers) for members (and non members) who are solely looking for a 100 qualifier.

How many places on 50 milers does that leave for the other 6400 members of the ldwa who may be thinking about a 50 miler, and to slowly move up to one if they feel fit etc. etc. and don't want to book a place 6 months in advance!

I'll leave someone else to do the sums, but think wider than simply the 100, there is a knock-on effect to all members who want to do anything over about 30 miles. And if we need more volunteers ....... see my earlier post about encouraging volunteers. Matt.
Author: Eileen Greenwood
Posted: Tue 21st Dec 2010, 21:54
Joined: 2002
Local Group: Yorkshire Coast
The serious hat took a bit of dusting off- and very uncomfortable. I've thrown it away!
Author: Eileen Greenwood
Posted: Tue 21st Dec 2010, 20:47
Joined: 2002
Local Group: Yorkshire Coast
I agree with David G Morgan- the 100 is a flagship event and rightly so and hopefully will remain so. Apart from the problem of finding volunteers within another group to host another 100 within the same year which is asking a bit much- it should remain as a once a year flagship event .

As Peter says- if out of 7000 members just 530 want to do an event- then that is the maximum anyway, If membership increases( and it will!) then in future years more than 530 want to do a 100. And will enter.

And finally, yes, to agree with Matthew and Jane Hand- it's an opportunity ( and a big headache) for the LDWA committee.

But it's good to be popular!

Take notice of what the new members want- why did they join? What do they join in with expectations of - events or social walking or both etc. Or just the extra long distance events? What do/would they like for their membership? I am sure the LDWA has asked and looked at this problem so sorry for repeating it!

Eileen, with my serious hat on- I do have one!
Author: David Morgan
Posted: Tue 21st Dec 2010, 20:06
Joined: 1994
Local Group: South Wales
It is potentially an opportunity Matt, but the organisation must try and ensure that if this is going to become an annual issue, that there are systems in place that means that all benefit.
The main problem as I see it, is that there will be talk of having additional 100 mile walks to compensate those who couldn't get on the main event. There are some issues with this, as currently, as I understand it, only an 'official' 100 can count towards any form of future award.
In addition, who would organise an additional event?
We in South Wales have been given the honour, and we truly see it as that, an honour to host the 100 in 2014. But that honour will be diluted if other events pop up to compensate other members. And would the event still be seen as the 'flagship' event?
So, yes, an opportunity, but some serious debating to take place as to where the event is to go if it is to continue to be over populated, before that opportunity is grasped.
Author: Peter Haslam
Posted: Tue 21st Dec 2010, 20:01
Joined: 1992
Local Group: East Lancashire
You could say that out of 7,000 members only 530 want to do a hundred. I'm sure Ken will be along with the percentage
Author: Matthew Hand
Posted: Tue 21st Dec 2010, 18:07
Joined: 2001
Local Group: Mid Wales
Some may look upon the oversubscription to the 100 (and very probably future 100s) as a problem. I would say it was an opportunity.

Maybe time to have a look at the ldwa and where it is headed with regards to what more and more people want. Matt.
Author: Ken Falconer
Posted: Tue 21st Dec 2010, 17:51
Joined: 1983
Local Group: Heart of Scotland
The statistics in the Report state that 417 set off to the skirl of the pipes at 0958hrs. The remaining 78 set off at either 1200 or 1400hrs. I do understand your confusion now! (The figure of 495 starters is in the report in August Strider or one could also tot up the lines in the results).
Author: Geoff Deighton
Posted: Tue 21st Dec 2010, 17:18
Joined: 1981
Local Group: High Peak
I got the figures from the Report and Results for the event as stated in the paragraph "Statistics". If they are wrong then I am sorry for quoting them.
Author: Ken Falconer
Posted: Tue 21st Dec 2010, 16:47
Joined: 1983
Local Group: Heart of Scotland
I'm not sure where you got your figures, Geoff. For the Heart of Scotland 100, after a substantial number of withdrawals and transfers of qualified entrants from the waiting list, there were 526 entries left on the day. Of these 31 did not start, leaving 495 starters of whom 352 finished the event. The figure of around 30 nonstarters is typical in recent years which is why a limit of 530 entrants has generally been adopted. The number of no-shows has never been anything like 95. There will always be a few who find themselves with colds or minor injuries on the day which could not have been anticipated and which would make it injudicious for them to start.
Author: Geoff Deighton
Posted: Tue 21st Dec 2010, 14:39
Joined: 1981
Local Group: High Peak
Although the 2010 event also had a waiting list, as far as I am aware, all who wished to enter were able to do so: 577 entered but 65 withdrew before the event. However, what on the face of it was disappointing is that, out of the 512 entries left, 95 didn’t turn up on the day. Obviously some of these will have had good reason. However, is 18.5% no-shows normal for a 100? If so, it is a shame if people are prevented from getting an entry by large numbers who perhaps weren’t all that committed to turning up when they entered.

Geoff Deighton
Posted: Tue 21st Dec 2010, 5:42
Joined: 1982
Sorry cancell last post. Right mesage but to wrong person. Probably me still Hans and List from last night,
Posted: Tue 21st Dec 2010, 5:38
Joined: 1982
Sue is that another way of saying Hans and List again!!
Author: Eileen Greenwood
Posted: Mon 20th Dec 2010, 22:43
Joined: 2002
Local Group: Yorkshire Coast
Or.. I felt discomfort when Bob entered... the room..so I was totally discombobulated!

Finished!
Author: Eileen Greenwood
Posted: Mon 20th Dec 2010, 22:35
Joined: 2002
Local Group: Yorkshire Coast
Actually, it started out as I was feeling mildly discontented. Then Bob entered.

Ok, I'll shut up now!
Author: Eileen Greenwood
Posted: Mon 20th Dec 2010, 19:45
Joined: 2002
Local Group: Yorkshire Coast
I'm feeling very discombobulated today- can anyone help me please?
Author: Eileen Greenwood
Posted: Mon 20th Dec 2010, 17:15
Joined: 2002
Local Group: Yorkshire Coast
Discombobulated? Must look that up! I'll remember it too- "I am feeling very discombobulated now".

It's an Americanism for discomfort,frustration,confusion,upset....

Maybe this year is a freak like the weather! But good planning ensures things go smoothly- very easy to say and very difficult to put into practice. The situation is changing,we want more members but can we handle more?

Some events are popular than others. It depends what runners events are on- the winter months see less runners events so they turn to the LDWA. And the longer distance challenge events will be popular with the ultrarunners. It's an interesting time of change!
Author: David Kearns
Posted: Mon 20th Dec 2010, 9:32
Joined: 1998
It hardly augurs well for the event if every year sees a mad scramble for entry and all places are filled within the first ten minutes, leaving a ruck of discombobulated members. Some kind of system will have to be put in place, preferably one in which no member is disadvantaged so long as they have a qualifier and have paid their subs.
Author: David Morgan
Posted: Sun 19th Dec 2010, 20:05
Joined: 1994
Local Group: South Wales
Thanks for that information Janet.

Well, if this is the sign of the times ahead,as with the Cleveland all those years ago, then there will be some lively debates no doubt!!! One way of ensuring an entry of course, would be to help on the event and do the marshals walk. I wonder how many have considered that?!!
Author: Janet Pitt-Lewis
Posted: Sun 19th Dec 2010, 19:01
Joined: 1993
Local Group: Marches
All entrants to the 2011 Hundred are LDWA members. Entries opened to LDWA members on the 1st December - they would not have opened to non members till the 1st January if there were places left - but there are no places. The waiting list is also confined to members
Author: David Morgan
Posted: Sun 19th Dec 2010, 18:24
Joined: 1994
Local Group: South Wales
It will be very interesting to know as to the ratio of non members to members entering the 100 in 2011. I acknowledge that there is a considerable price difference between the fees for the two seperate groups, but perhaps in the future, should the oversubscribing become a problem again, that members take precedence with regards to booking, and if there are spaces left with a set time to go, then non members would be accepted.

Either way, it certainly augers well for the future of the event!!
Author: Eileen Greenwood
Posted: Sat 18th Dec 2010, 20:35
Joined: 2002
Local Group: Yorkshire Coast
Yes Mike I did get an entry- but only just.

Actually I have already offered my help on the Marshalls event a few months ago! I figure it is the least I can do for all the hard work they do. It is difficult to get to for me and expensive but I have no plans for that weekend anyway. Isn't it Royal Wedding weekend- so I get an extra travelling day?

I hope I can pitch my ancient tent somewhere for the Marshsalls. No doubt I will be informed!
Author: Elton Ellis
Posted: Sat 18th Dec 2010, 17:27
Joined: 2006
Local Group: Surrey
Sorry. I don't quite follow this.

Is the Housman Hundred full already? Surely that's never happened before.
Author: Garfield Southall
Posted: Thu 16th Dec 2010, 23:48
Joined: 1991
Local Group: Merseystride
I like the 50-mile proof idea. As time goes on there will need to be a digital version as well of course - if anything that could be even quicker and easier; just e-mail direct from 50 mile event finish to 100 mile entry sec! Requiring proof of marshalling sounds like a neat plan too, although I'm glad I won't be having to trawl through the proofs .... (Did my stint as 100 entry sec last year...) [HS]
Author: Matthew Hand
Posted: Wed 15th Dec 2010, 20:30
Joined: 2001
Local Group: Mid Wales
I would add another condition for entry to the 100, it goes like this.

Everyone receives (with their membership card or Strider mag) another personal card (name and membership number on it - so no cheating). On this card is recorded their 50 mile qualifier, stamped/signed at the event finish.

Also everyone is required to help marshall (in any form) at least one challenge event in the previous 12 months, this is also stamped/signed as above.

This card is submitted with their 100 entry form.

So now the ldwa has at least 500 helpers on challenge events through the year, and it ensures that everyone helps a bit towards the organisation of other walks. Just a thought for consideration. Matt.
Author: Michael Childs
Posted: Wed 15th Dec 2010, 18:32
Joined: 1990
Local Group: Dorset
So, Eileen, did you get a place in the Housman ?
Author: John Sparshatt
Posted: Sun 12th Dec 2010, 17:36
Joined: 1983
Local Group: West Yorkshire
The problem with raising the limit from 530 entrants, which is LDWA policy, is not only that it goes against LDWA policy but also the logistical problems of moving baggage and feeding hungry walkers and runners. It is just too much to ask the volunteers who move the baggage and feed the entrants to have the extra burden of more walkers on the event. A case of a bag and a bun too far.
Author: David Kearns
Posted: Sun 12th Dec 2010, 10:10
Joined: 1998
I believe the last Hundred to be seriously over-subscribed was Cleveland in (?)1992. There was a lot of discussion in Strider, some of it ill-tempered. As far as I know, no satisfactory answer was ever reached.

The only solution is to dispense with the 500 entry limit. After all,500 is a purely arbitrary figure, plucked out of the air by somebody back in the year dot. It might just as well be 550 or 600.

Dave
Author: Tony Willey
Posted: Sat 11th Dec 2010, 22:01
Joined: 1989
Local Group: Lakeland
There was a discussion on Hundred entry procedures in the open forum section at the last AGM and Draft Minutes can be found in the "Library" section of "Useful info". There was no formal vote but for what it is worth, about 65% of the members present felt that a first come first served system should be adopted.

i have no doubt that this is not the last we have heard on the subject!
Author: Janet Pitt-Lewis
Posted: Sat 11th Dec 2010, 19:13
Joined: 1993
Local Group: Marches
It is great that so many people want to visit the land of lost content and enter the Housman Hundred. We will be carrying out a feedback exercise to try to discover how that interest was generated. Julie's book is certainly a factor and this is the first Hundred to benefit from that publicity as people need a year to train, qualify and enter. The currect popularity of ultra events has helped - they are usually commercially run and the entrants are waking up to the great value and organisation of LDWA events - look at the FRA and Runners World forums (fora for the pedantic). There has been considerable local interest - we are fortunate in Shropshire to have a well established 50 mile event - the Long Mynd Hike - which also had a record entry this year. I do not share the view that the LDWA website has contributed greatly. Imagine you are a potential Hundred entrant with litttle knowledge of the LDWA and turn up this website. There is nothing on the home page that says anything about the Hundred. If you were interested enough to look under "events" you get a heading "Annual Hundred Mile walk" which tells you about Hundreds in general but the only link is to photographs of the Heart of Scotland. You have to search with some determination to find a link to the Housman website or anything about the Housman. Still - it doesn't seem to have put entrants off.
Author: Eileen Greenwood
Posted: Fri 10th Dec 2010, 13:34
Joined: 2002
Local Group: Yorkshire Coast
Actually John- the increase popularity is probably due to our webpage!
Author: John Phillips
Posted: Fri 10th Dec 2010, 8:09
Joined: 2007
Local Group: East Yorkshire
Agree the 100 seems to be getting more popular. If the Event Full signs are nearly up within a week of opening then perhaps consideration needs to be given to an additional event in future - August Bank Holiday? Alternatively, open up the marshals' walk to all and plan it for 500 rather than 30. Probably too late for 2011 though.
I do worry about 2012 and the potential number of entries, and the real possibility that hundreds of people will be rejected.
Surely we should be encouraging people to walk long distances and not be telling them we can't accommodate them.
Author: Eileen Greenwood
Posted: Thu 9th Dec 2010, 21:34
Joined: 2002
Local Group: Yorkshire Coast
There isn't a fair way really Tony. It's up to the organisers. There will be a waiting list for the waiting list I think!
The events seem to be getting more popular. I think the runners have found a good, cheap and fun way to run! I don't blame them! It's far cheaper than their non ldwa events.

I'll enter 2012 100 event now I think! Because that will certainly be oversubscribed.
Author: Tony Deall
Posted: Thu 9th Dec 2010, 21:26
Joined: 1985
Local Group: Cumbria
Confusing ain't it. Last year there was a ballot which, if memory serves me right, is still the recommended way to organise 100 entries.
This year it seems to be first come, first served. I don't pretend to know what the answer is but would be interested in other views.
Luckily I got mine in in time but I was number 343 entering on 3rd December - just three days after entries opened!
Author: Eileen Greenwood
Posted: Thu 9th Dec 2010, 21:15
Joined: 2002
Local Group: Yorkshire Coast
A window of 24 hours for online entry for next years 100! Damn, I was calmly awaiting for payday to enter in mid December. But now I find there is a window of just 24 hours. Panic! What will I do if I don't get in? My life literally is geared up all year for this event!

There's the Fellsman of course which I haven't done- but it's not in the same league and not LDWA so a poor second choice.

My fingers will be poised on the keys Friday/Sat...

See what Father Christmas will do for me!

This website uses cookies

To comply with EU Directives we are informing you that our website uses cookies for services such as memberships and Google Analytics.

Your data is completely safe and we do not record any personally identifiable information.

Please click the button to acknowledge and approve our use of cookies during your visit.

Learn more about the Cookie Law